MOST UNDERRATED AIRCRAFT OF WWII?

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However, the final reason why tip and run attacks stopped was far simpler in that there were no fighter-bombers available for 'tip and run' missions left in north-west Europe by the middle of June 1943. On the 12th of May 1943, German forces had surrendered in North Africa and it was clear that the Allies would soon invade southern Europe. The Germans thought that the greater threat was now in the Mediterranean, the 'soft underbelly of Europe', so in order to reinforce one wing of SKG 10, a second was rushed from France to southern Italy in the second week of June 1943 whilst a third wing was withdrawn from France and operational from Italy by the end of June 1943. By then, the only fighter-bomber unit still in northern France was the nocturnal wing of SKG 10.


For much of the 15 months that 'tip and run' attacks occurred, the Germans could only muster a maximum of 28 aircraft to attack targets on a coastline which stretched from Great Yarmouth to the Lizard, a distance in excess of 1300 kilometres. However, this length of coastline and uncertainty of what would be attacked also played into the German's hands. There were insufficient anti-aircraft guns of the correct calibre to counter a low-flying high-speed threat, whilst: "…the RAF could offer no positive defence against these fast, low-flying fighter-bombers which achieved an effect out of all proportion to the effort they represented. The Chain-Home and Chain-Home Low radar stations…were unable to plot the movements of the jabos on account of their low altitude and Fighter Command was forced to mount standing patrols in order to counter the threat…"65 It is interesting to note that wartime analysis stated anti-aircraft guns accounted for 55 'tip and run' attackers during the period March 1942 to the 6th of June 1943; fighters were said to have accounted for a further 51.66 Analysis carried out by myself tells a different story – anti-aircraft fire actually accounted for 28 fighter-bombers, fighters a further 28, one aircraft was shared whilst a further five either collided with buildings, high-tension wires or other aircraft.67 It is clear that to lose 62 aircraft and 62 pilots over a 15 month period was high but at this stage of the war, this was sustainable. Furthermore, these losses should be compared against a comparable German twin-engined bomber group which, for the same period, lost 122 aircraft in attacks on Britain, costing in the region of 480 aircrew killed, missing or prisoners of war.68 From a military viewpoint, 'tip and run' attacks did result in many more anti-aircraft guns and associated personnel being dedicated to defend potential targets. Furthermore, Fighter Command was forced to dedicate many aircraft to try and prevent the fighter-bombers from dropping their bombs, something normally met with little success. These assets could have been better used
 
Probably because Camm had bought the RAE's flawed 'thick wing - is the go' malakey,
& since the Air Min had duly deemed..

' For future fighters, fuel tanks have to be mounted in the wings, away from the pilot'

Camm figured, - ok then, I've 2,000hp to play with & more to come, so I'll draw up a big, strong bird..

But the dreaded 'speed demon' emerged from the 'ughknown' - to plague him..

A blobbly lump of a radiator plopped on underneath the Hurricane's wing centre section worked well enough,
so why not do the same for the Tornado?

But... at ~400mph in level flight, WTF! Oh no.. compressibility troubles.. ok, so sling it under the nose
like the Typhoon & Bob's your bleedin' mums brother..

Interestingly the 1/2 sisters Tornado & Typhoon had one major difference, the more compact Sabre
could be fitted closer back to the cockpit & the X-type Vulture was mounted ahead of the wing..
big deal.. but.. Tornado dies with the sorry ol' dud of an R-R mill, so that's that..

Anyhow, Camm sees the flight performance numbers for the Typhoon, compares them with
the projections he'd been given by RAE, & realises he's been sold a pup.. & a naughty one..

So Camm goes to the NPL & sez, ' I've seen the Yank's new Mustang wing, what have you got?'
& an ultra-modern NPL profile becomes the new 'Hawker high-speed wing' & the Tempest emerges..

Camm tells Air Min, ' I cant bloody well fit all the juice in my new thin wing, & you keep approving
new Spitfire Mk's that don't either, so I am extending the nose to fit a tank behind the mill'.

Lo & behold, when the Tempest flies, she's a big improvement on the Typhoon, being over 20mph
faster on the same power, & much smoother, plus, when the higher altitude Sabre IV is trialled,
with leading edge radiators & a thinner section tailplane the Mk I prototype is making ~470mph,
@ ~25,000ft - in early 1943..

So the Typhoon goes on the development back-burner, never progressing beyond Mk Ib,
& picking up some Tempest hand-me-downs, 4-blade prop, thinner tailplane & bubble top..
( that clear view canopy really impressed stateside, with the P-47K being 1st of a bunch to copy it)..
 
Could you elaborate further concerning the P-51D tail issues? I've read that the fillet was eventually added to strengthen the tail section as it lost some bulk due to the cut-down rear fuselage and there was worry regarding it's ability to hold up in regular service, but never heard of any serious accidents resulting from it.

The fin fillet was not structural strengthening - it was to help stability, which had deteriorated when the rear fuselage was cut down for the bubble canopy.

The P-51B also suffered from stability issues, brought about from increasing the power significantly (from V-1710 to V-1650-3) and going from a 3 blade prop to a larger 4 blade prop.
 
This
The fin fillet was not structural strengthening - it was to help stability, which had deteriorated when the rear fuselage was cut down for the bubble canopy.

The P-51B also suffered from stability issues, brought about from increasing the power significantly (from V-1710 to V-1650-3) and going from a 3 blade prop to a larger 4 blade prop.
is consistent with all the documentation I havr seen, and that's a lot. I would lije to see citations for any thing else.
 
However, the final reason why tip and run attacks stopped was far simpler in that there were no fighter-bombers available for 'tip and run' missions left in north-west Europe by the middle of June 1943. On the 12th of May 1943, German forces had surrendered in North Africa and it was clear that the Allies would soon invade southern Europe. The Germans thought that the greater threat was now in the Mediterranean, the 'soft underbelly of Europe', so in order to reinforce one wing of SKG 10, a second was rushed from France to southern Italy in the second week of June 1943 whilst a third wing was withdrawn from France and operational from Italy by the end of June 1943. By then, the only fighter-bomber unit still in northern France was the nocturnal wing of SKG 10.


For much of the 15 months that 'tip and run' attacks occurred, the Germans could only muster a maximum of 28 aircraft to attack targets on a coastline which stretched from Great Yarmouth to the Lizard, a distance in excess of 1300 kilometres. However, this length of coastline and uncertainty of what would be attacked also played into the German's hands. There were insufficient anti-aircraft guns of the correct calibre to counter a low-flying high-speed threat, whilst: "…the RAF c
offer no positive defence against these fast, low-flying fighter-bombers which achieved an effect out of all proportion to the effort they represented. The Chain-Home and Chain-Home Low radar stations…were unable to plot the movements of the jabos on account of their low altitude and Fighter Command was forced to mount standing patrols in order to counter the threat…"65 It is interesting to note that wartime analysis stated anti-aircraft guns accounted for 55 'tip and run' attackers during the period March 1942 to the 6th of June 1943; fighters were said to have accounted for a further 51.66 Analysis carried out by myself tells a different story – anti-aircraft fire actually accounted for 28 fighter-bombers, fighters a further 28, one aircraft was shared whilst a further five either collided with buildings, high-tension wires or other aircraft.67 It is clear that to lose 62 aircraft and 62 pilots over a 15 month period was high but at this stage of the war, this was sustainable. Furthermore, these losses should be compared against a comparable German twin-engined bomber group which, for the same period, lost 122 aircraft in attacks on Britain, costing in the region of 480 aircrew killed, missing or prisoners of war.68 From a military viewpoint, 'tip and run' attacks did result in many more anti-aircraft guns and associated personnel being dedicated to defend potential targets. Furthermore, Fighter Command was forced to dedicate many aircraft to try and prevent the fighter-bombers from dropping their bombs, something normally met with little success. These assets could have been better used



You gonna credit a source for that enbloc spiel? Likely not..
It is inaccurate..

FYI on Jan 20 `43.. 28 FW 190 JaBos were allocated to a daylight penetration attack on London,
with another 85 LW 109/190's flying escort, 'spoof' & other direct support roles over Blighty..
However, the final reason why tip and run attacks stopped was far simpler in that there were no fighter-bombers available for 'tip and run' missions left in north-west Europe by the middle of June 1943. On the 12th of May 1943, German forces had surrendered in North Africa and it was clear that the Allies would soon invade southern Europe. The Germans thought that the greater threat was now in the Mediterranean, the 'soft underbelly of Europe', so in order to reinforce one wing of SKG 10, a second was rushed from France to southern Italy in the second week of June 1943 whilst a third wing was withdrawn from France and operational from Italy by the end of June 1943. By then, the only fighter-bomber unit still in northern France was the nocturnal wing of SKG 10.


For much of the 15 months that 'tip and run' attacks occurred, the Germans could only muster a maximum of 28 aircraft to attack targets on a coastline which stretched from Great Yarmouth to the Lizard, a distance in excess of 1300 kilometres. However, this length of coastline and uncertainty of what would be attacked also played into the German's hands. There were insufficient anti-aircraft guns of the correct calibre to counter a low-flying high-speed threat, whilst: "…the RAF could offer no positive defence against these fast, low-flying fighter-bombers which achieved an effect out of all proportion to the effort they represented. The Chain-Home and Chain-Home Low radar stations…were unable to plot the movements of the jabos on account of their low altitude and Fighter Command was forced to mount standing patrols in order to counter the threat…"65 It is interesting to note that wartime analysis stated anti-aircraft guns accounted for 55 'tip and run' attackers during the period March 1942 to the 6th of June 1943; fighters were said to have accounted for a further 51.66 Analysis carried out by myself tells a different story – anti-aircraft fire actually accounted for 28 fighter-bombers, fighters a further 28, one aircraft was shared whilst a further five either collided with buildings, high-tension wires or other aircraft.67 It is clear that to lose 62 aircraft and 62 pilots over a 15 month period was high but at this stage of the war, this was sustainable. Furthermore, these losses should be compared against a comparable German twin-engined bomber group which, for the same period, lost 122 aircraft in attacks on Britain, costing in the region of 480 aircrew killed, missing or prisoners of war.68 From a military viewpoint, 'tip and run' attacks did result in many more anti-aircraft guns and associated personnel being dedicated to defend potential targets. Furthermore, Fighter Command was forced to dedicate many aircraft to try and prevent the fighter-bombers from dropping their bombs, something normally met with little success. These assets could have been better used
 
The fin fillet was not structural strengthening - it was to help stability, which had deteriorated when the rear fuselage was cut down for the bubble canopy.

The P-51B also suffered from stability issues, brought about from increasing the power significantly (from V-1710 to V-1650-3) and going from a 3 blade prop to a larger 4 blade prop.
I believe the maximum take off weight with full internal and external tanks coupled with the CoG issue with a full rear tank was also an issue to be considered.
 
The fin fillet was not structural strengthening - it was to help stability, which had deteriorated when the rear fuselage was cut down for the bubble canopy.

The P-51B also suffered from stability issues, brought about from increasing the power significantly (from V-1710 to V-1650-3) and going from a 3 blade prop to a larger 4 blade prop.

Best check that with a P-51 savvy member for a call, but I'll put a quid on what I wrote..
 
This
The fin fillet was not structural strengthening - it was to help stability, which had deteriorated when the rear fuselage was cut down for the bubble canopy.

The P-51B also suffered from stability issues, brought about from increasing the power significantly (from V-1710 to V-1650-3) and going from a 3 blade prop to a larger 4 blade prop.
is consistent with all the documentation I have seen, and that's a lot. I would like to see citations for any thing else.

Dorsal fins are almost invariably added due to shortfalls in yaw stability, yaw damping, or spin recovery.
 
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Probably because Camm had bought the RAE's flawed 'thick wing - is the go' malakey,
& since the Air Min had duly deemed..

Or was it Camm's MO?


But the dreaded 'speed demon' emerged from the 'ughknown' - to plague him..

Seriously WTF!


A blobbly lump of a radiator plopped on underneath the Hurricane's wing centre section worked well enough,
so why not do the same for the Tornado?

Because Camm stuffed it up?

Note that he was not on his own there - Curtiss also tried belly radiators on some of their aircraft (such as XP-40), without great success.

Curtiss-Wright XP-40 Archives - This Day in Aviation

XP-40 is about half the way down.


But... at ~400mph in level flight, WTF! Oh no.. compressibility troubles.. ok, so sling it under the nose
like the Typhoon & Bob's your bleedin' mums brother..

The Tornado flew only a handful of flights with the belly radiator before moving the radiator to behind the spinner. This all occurred before the Typhoon flew (something about the engine not being available).

When the Typhoon did fly, it sported the chin radiator of the Tornado.


Interestingly the 1/2 sisters Tornado & Typhoon had one major difference, the more compact Sabre
could be fitted closer back to the cockpit & the X-type Vulture was mounted ahead of the wing..
big deal.. but.. Tornado dies with the sorry ol' dud of an R-R mill, so that's that..

If Rolls-Royce had only the Vulture to get sorted and the pressure of the war situation was being borne by other manufacturers, I'm sure it would have been a winner.

Recall that the original Merlins were not great either, it took some work to get them to an acceptable performance, and quite a few mods and design changes (ramp head to flat head, for example).
 
This

is consistent with all the documentation I have seen, and that's a lot. I would like to see citations for any thing else.

Dorsal fins are almost invariably added due to shortfalls in yaw stability, yaw damping, or spin recovery.


Member drgondog might chime in with his take on, we'll see...
 
Wiki says this
"
Despite these modifications, the P-51Bs and P-51Cs, and the newer P-51Ds and P-51Ks, experienced low-speed handling problems that could result in an involuntary "snap-roll" under certain conditions of air speed, angle of attack, gross weight, and center of gravity. Several crash reports tell of P-51Bs and P-51Cs crashing because horizontal stabilizers were torn off during maneuvering. As a result of these problems, a modification kit consisting of a dorsal fin was manufactured. One report stated:

"Unless a dorsal fin is installed on the P-51B, P-51C and P-51D airplanes, a snap roll may result when attempting a slow roll. The horizontal stabilizer will not withstand the effects of a snap roll. To prevent recurrence, the stabilizer should be reinforced in accordance with T.O. 01-60J-18 dated 8 April 1944 and a dorsal fin should be installed. Dorsal fin kits are being made available to overseas activities"

The dorsal fin kits became available in August 1944, and available as retrofits for P-51Bs and P-51Cs (but rarely used on the "razorback" -B and -C Mustangs), and to early P-51Ds and P-51Ks that had not already been built with them. Also incorporated was a change to the rudder trim tabs, which would help prevent the pilot over-controlling the aircraft and creating heavy loads on the tail unit.[31]

and this

The addition of the 85 U.S gallon (322 l) fuselage fuel tank, coupled with the reduction in area of the new rear fuselage, exacerbated the handling problems already experienced with the B/C series when fitted with the tank, and led to the same fillet being added to -B, -C and initial -D-series versions in the field, to be quickly standardized as a normal rear-fuselage airframe component on later production blocks of the -D version.[35] P-51Ds without fuselage fuel tanks were fitted with either the SCR-522-A or SCR-274-N Command Radio sets and SCR-695-A, or SCR-515 radio transmitters, as well as an AN/APS-13 rear-warning set;[nb 9] P-51Ds and Ks with fuselage tanks used the SCR-522-A and AN/APS-13 only.[44]
 
When the Typhoon did fly, it sported the chin radiator of the Tornado.

If Rolls-Royce had only the Vulture to get sorted and the pressure of the war situation was being borne by other manufacturers, I'm sure it would have been a winner.


No, & no - you cannot be serious!

1, The Typhoon was always intended to have the chin rad, the Tornado jumped on the band wagon..
& no early XP-40 with a belly rad got anywhere near 400mph, AFAIK..

2, If only Jesus H, Christ appeared to me in person & gave me the kosher numbers for the next big lotto draw..
then hell, I'd be a winner, too!

& WTF?, Hey W, aint you read/seen 'The Right Stuff' - with that rascally ol' demon - a lurkin' in the ughknown?
Its a classic..
 
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Wiki says this
"
Despite these modifications, the P-51Bs and P-51Cs, and the newer P-51Ds and P-51Ks, experienced low-speed handling problems that could result in an involuntary "snap-roll" under certain conditions of air speed, angle of attack, gross weight, and center of gravity. Several crash reports tell of P-51Bs and P-51Cs crashing because horizontal stabilizers were torn off during maneuvering. As a result of these problems, a modification kit consisting of a dorsal fin was manufactured. One report stated:

"Unless a dorsal fin is installed on the P-51B, P-51C and P-51D airplanes, a snap roll may result when attempting a slow roll. The horizontal stabilizer will not withstand the effects of a snap roll. To prevent recurrence, the stabilizer should be reinforced in accordance with T.O. 01-60J-18 dated 8 April 1944 and a dorsal fin should be installed. Dorsal fin kits are being made available to overseas activities"

The dorsal fin kits became available in August 1944, and available as retrofits for P-51Bs and P-51Cs (but rarely used on the "razorback" -B and -C Mustangs), and to early P-51Ds and P-51Ks that had not already been built with them. Also incorporated was a change to the rudder trim tabs, which would help prevent the pilot over-controlling the aircraft and creating heavy loads on the tail unit.[31]

and this

The addition of the 85 U.S gallon (322 l) fuselage fuel tank, coupled with the reduction in area of the new rear fuselage, exacerbated the handling problems already experienced with the B/C series when fitted with the tank, and led to the same fillet being added to -B, -C and initial -D-series versions in the field, to be quickly standardized as a normal rear-fuselage airframe component on later production blocks of the -D version.[35] P-51Ds without fuselage fuel tanks were fitted with either the SCR-522-A or SCR-274-N Command Radio sets and SCR-695-A, or SCR-515 radio transmitters, as well as an AN/APS-13 rear-warning set;[nb 9] P-51Ds and Ks with fuselage tanks used the SCR-522-A and AN/APS-13 only.[44]


Hmmm... now who was it, mentioned 'snap rolls' as a no no - a few posts back? Oh yeah, I remember now..
 
Yeah, with tail empennage failures, like the Typhoon, ( same problem, different root cause).
Citation required. In 30+ years of looking aircraft history, I have never seen that reported, nor is it the most likely form for a structural fix, as it would require loads be reacted into the vertical fin, and would not contribute to torsional strength, which would have been lost with the removal of the turtle deck. Vertical bending strength may have been lost, but removing the turtle deck would have reduced torsional strength.
 
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[QUOTE="wuzak, post: 1398870, member: 4256]


1, The Typhoon was always intended to have the chin rad, the Tornado jumped on the band wagon..
..
This makes no sense at all, the Tornado and Typhoon were Hawker designs what they were meant to have or not have is up to Hawker. A design doesn't "jump" on anything, the Griffon installation was another radiator variation while the Centaurus was air cooled and different again, while even the last tempests were tried with an annular radiator.
 
Citation required. In 30+ years of looking aircraft history, I have never seen that reported, nor is it the most likely form for a structural fix, as it would require loads be reacted into the vertical fin, and would not contribute to torsional strength, which would have been lost with the removal of the turtle deck.


Sure.. try www.avialogs.com - they have the original NAA document citing..
"0J-60J-18 Reinforcement..."
"To reduce the possibility of empennage failure..."
 

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