MOST UNDERRATED AIRCRAFT OF WWII?

[BiffF15]

Wes, is there any reason why pilots manuals forbid snap or flick rolls when they seem to be perfectly capable of doing them? Is it just "playing safe"

pbehn,

The OV-10 Bronco forbade them although I knew guys who did them. My bet would be the reasons varied by plane. The Eagle doesn't like negative G flight for other than short periods. The Bronco didn't like hammerhead stalls, caused the exhaust "pipe" to come lose if you did a tail slide (know someone who did that to), however it's a non-event in the Eagle. Snap rolls put a lot of stress on a plane and its parts and would guess most planes aren't stressed for doing that repeatedly.

Cheers,
Biff

 

[pbehn]

pbehn,

The OV-10 Bronco forbade them although I knew guys who did them. My bet would be the reasons varied by plane. The Eagle doesn't like negative G flight for other than short periods. The Bronco didn't like hammerhead stalls, caused the exhaust "pipe" to come lose if you did a tail slide (know someone who did that to), however it's a non-event in the Eagle. Snap rolls put a lot of stress on a plane and its parts and would guess most planes aren't stressed for doing that repeatedly.

Cheers,
Biff

Thanks Biff, the Spitfire manual forbids them but I read this
"The Hurricane would drop a wing if you stalled it coming in, but a Spitfire would come wafting down. You couldn't snap it into a spin. Beautiful to fly, although very stiff on the ailerons - you had to jam your elbow against the side to get the leverage to move them. And so fast!!! If you shut the throttle in a Hurricane you'd come to a grinding halt; in a Spitfire you just go whistling on."

P/O H.G.Niven 601 & 602 Squadrons

Which means some at least tried it.

Cheer pb.

 

[flypaper2222]

P-36/H-75....from Finland to North Africa to Thailand used and fought and did really well.

 

[Hairog]

Not to ridicule or limit the achievements of the brave men who flew the Lightning in combat, but this type of inflammatory rhetoric is commonplace when your favorite aircraft doesn't have the stats to back up your wild claims. But I guess it's a far easier task to minimize the officially recognized victory record of both the Mustang and Hellcat than to actually bring real statistics to support your claims. That the Lightning some how singlehandedly cleared the sky of all seasoned German and Japanese pilots, only to leave the "dregs" to the two highest scoring American fighter aircraft of the war, sounds like sour grapes to me.....

You just haven't found the right sources and continue to spew the party line.
Straight statistics don't tell the whole story. It takes a combination of statistics, logic, knowledge of human behavior and precedence to properly interpret history.

1. Can we agree that as the war wore on the Axis powers lost the ability to properly train new fighter pilots to replace their losses due to lack of fuel, safe areas to practice and poor training organizations?
2. That as the war dragged on the Axis lost more and more of their best pilots due to simple attrition an their replacements were increasingly inferior.

I can provide massive evidence that both these statements are true.

The subject of the post is "The Most Underrated Plane of World War Two". Your response pretty much says it all about the attitude concerning the P-38.

The following has been pulled from a old forum and this collection pretty much lays out a pretty convincing argument that the Lightning was the most strategically important fighter of the entire war.

From: [email protected] (CDB100620)
Subject: Re: P38 in Europe? A success?
Date: 17 Dec 1996

Thirteen P-38 FGs were deployed in Europe and Med Theaters:
1, 14, 20, 55, 78, 81, 82, 350, 364, 367, 370, 474, 479.

Photo recon versions of the P-38 (F-4 and F-5) served in Europe and the
Med in five PRGs:
3, 5, 10, 67, 68.

The 1FG and 14FG were first to receive P-38 in spring, 1941.

P-38s equipped a total of 27 FG and 10 PRG.

In Europe, the P-38 flew some 130,000 sorties. That compares with about
214,000 for the P-51 and 423,000 for the P-47.

Aside from about 20 F-4/5s given to the Free French air force, only the
USAAF used P-38s during the war (a handful of non-turbo, non-handed
versions went to and were rejected by the RAF). One of these proved the
coffin of Antoine de Saint Exupery, author of "Wind, Sand and Stars" and
other aviation literature standards, who disappeared on a flight over
southern France, 31 July, 1944.

The first German plane shot down by the USAAF in WWII is generally
credited to a P-38 on 14 Aug., 1942, an FW-200C downed by Elza Shaham of
342 Composite FG.

The first allied fighters over Berlin were P-38s of the 55FG on 3 March,
1944.

The 1FG was the only USAAF fighter group during the war to win two
Presidential Unit Citations in less than a week, for actions in the MTO.

On two occasions, once in the Pacific and once in the Med, a lone P-38
escorting a group of bombers succeeded in driving off numbers of enemy
fighters attempting to attack the bombers, in each case shooting down one
e/a that got too close. The Pacific incident involved a P-38 from the
475FG, which shot down a Ki-61 from a gaggle going after B-25s, and the
Med incident invoved a P-38 from the 1FG that shot down an Me-109 from a
gaggle going after B-25s. In each case, the lone P-38 had been late off
the runway, missed the rendevous and proceeded on alone hoping to catch up
to the rest of the squadron, which was, in each case, turned back by bad
weather that the late starter missed.

The leading P-38 aces in the Med were Micheal Brezas who shot down 12
German planes (2 Me-210, 4 Me-109, 6 FW-190) while serving with the 14FG,
and William Sloan, who shot down 12 German and Italian a/c (6 Me-109, 2
Mc-200, 1 Mc-202, 1 Re-2001, 1 Ju-88, 1 Do-217) while serving with the
82FG.

The 55FG began operations out of England on 15 Oct., 1943, one day after
Black Thursday when some 60 B-17s were lost on the second Schweinfurt
raid. First encounter with Luftwaffe on 3 Nov., shot down 3 Me-109 with
no loss to selves. On 5 Nov., down five Me-109s with no loss. On 13
Nov., in a sprawling, large-scale battle, shot down 3 FW-190, 2 Ju-88, 1
Me-109, 1 Me-210 but lost 5 P-38s shot down. Two more were lost due to
engine problems. On 29 Nov. 7 P-38s were shot down for the loss of no
German planes.
Problems that surfaced with the P-38 in northern European theatre included
its poor performance above 30,000 ft compared to the Me-109, caused by its
lack of high activity propellers able to make use of the power the engines
were delivering at that altitude. The F models used also had insufficient
intercooler capacity. Some indication that TEL anti-knock compound was
not being properly mixed into avgas as well (at this time TEL was still
blended by hand into fuel shortly before use rather than being blended
when produced. This was because in those days the compound tended to
precipitate out if left standing too long. This problem later corrected.
Others believed either too much (leading to plug fouling) or not enough
(detonation) TEL was being added, causing engine problems.
Another problem that was revealed by the Nov. actions was that 55FG pilots
were attempting to dogfight e/a. Their airplane may have been up to the
job, but the pilots weren't (many had as little of 20 hours total time on
the P-38, and little or no air to air gunnery training, and were
especially lacking in deflection shooting skills. Many after-action
contact reports tell of repeated bursts of fire at deflection angles with
no results. Most kills were the result of dead-astern shots). An 8th AF
report examining the failures of the 55FG noted one main problem was that
the P-38 as an airplane was simply too complicated and too demanding for a
low-time service pilot to fly skillfully, let alone dogfight in. It noted
that many pilots were afraid of the P-38. 55FG lost 17 P-38s in combat in
Nov., while being credited with 23 e/a destroyed in the air.
Morale in 55FG plummeted, and numerous pilots aborted missions claiming
mechanical problems--giving the a/c type a bad rep for mechanical
unreliability, although u/s reports reveal that in most cases the ground
crew could find nothing wrong with the aircraft. In many instances the
ground crews hinted that the pilots were merely cowards. In one u/s
report, the pilot had aborted the mission because he claimed the piss tube
was too short and he could not use it. The ground crew chief wrote in his
report: "Piss tube to spec. Problem is pilot's dick is too short."

20FG entered N. Euro. combat at the end of Dec, '43. Did not appear to
suffer from the morale and leadership problems of the 55FG. First
contacted Luftwaffe on 29 Jan. '44. Downed 3 FW-190, 3 Me-110, 3 Me-210,
1 Me-109. No P-38s lost. 3 FWs downed by Lindol Graham, who used only
his single 20mm cannon, 12 shots per plane. (Lindol later crashed and was
killed while attempting to kill the fleeing crew of an Me-110 he had just
forced down in a low-level fight. The two men were floundering across a
snow-covered field and it appeared that Lindol attempted to hit them with
his props. His plane seemed to hit the ground, then bounce back up,
soaring into a chandelle, then falling off on its nose and diving straight
into the ground.)
On 8 Feb. James Morris of 20FG downed 3 FW-190s in a single combat,
involving tight turns (in which the P-38's maneuvering flap setting [8
degrees extension] was used) and an Me-109 as returning home, the first
quadruple kill for an 8AF fighter. All kills were made with dead astern
shots. Morris missed all his deflection shots. Interestingly, two of the
FWs were first encountered head-on and Morris was able to reverse and
maneuver onto their tails while they tried with all their might to get on
his--and failed. Three days later he downed an Me-109, making him the
first P-38 ace flying out of England. (He would score a total of 8
victories before being shot down on 7 July, the highest score of any
UK-based P-38 pilot.)

364FG arrived in UK in Feb., '44. Led by Col John Lowell, who had helped
develop the P-38 at Wright-Pat, on its first mission over Berlin on 6
March, he downed 2 Me-109s, and two more on 8 March. On 9 March he downed
an FW-190. He was eventually to tally 11 kills in the P-38, but several
were downgraded to probables after the war.
Col Mark Hubbel took over the 20th on 17 March. He believed P-38
excellent fighter against Luftwaffe and proved it by promptly shooting
down 2 Me-109 and sharing a third with his wingman. He may have downed a
fourth Me-109 which he was seen pursuing as it streamed smoke in a dive.
He was last seen chasing yet another Me-109, this time through the door
of a church. Neither planes nor church survived the encounter.
During the late winter of 1944 ocurred the famous dual between a
Griffon-engined Spitfire XV and a P-38H of the 364FG. Col. Lowell few the
P-38, engaging the Spitfire at 5,000 ft. in a head-on pass. Lowell was
able to get on the Spitfire's tail and stay there no matter what the
Spitfire pilot did. Although the Spitfire could execute a tighter turning
circle than the P-38, Lowell was able to use the P-38's excellent stall
characteristics to repeatedly pull inside the Spit's turn radius and ride
the stall, then back off outside the Spit's turn, pick up speed and cut
back in again in what he called a "cloverleaf" maneuver. After 20 minutes
of this, at 1,000 ft. altitude, the Spit tried a Spit-S (at a 30-degree
angle, not vertically down). Lowell stayed with the Spit through the
maneuver, although his P-38 almost hit the ground. After that the
Spitfire pilot broke off the engagement and flew home. This contest was
witnessed by 75 pilots on the ground.

Ultimately 7 P-38 FG were operational in northern Europe. The 474th was
the only one to retain the P-38 till the end of the war. As pilots grew
used to the plane and developed confidence in it, it successes against the
Luftwaffe grew. On 7 July, '44, P-38s of the 20FG downed 25 out of 77 e/a
destroyed that day, the highest of any group.
The last UK-based P-38 ace was Robin Olds of the 479FG. On 14 Aug., '44,
while flying alone, he encountered two FW-190s and engaged them in a
dogfight, shooting both down.
On 25 Aug, P-38s from 367 encountered FW-190s of JG-6, a top Luftwaffe
unit. Wild, low-level battle ensued in which 8 P-38s and 20 FW-190s were
down. Five of the FWs were shot down by Capt. Lawrence Blumer. 367
received a Presidential Unit Citation as a result of this battle.
On the same day, P-38s from 474 shot down 21 FW-190s for the loss of 11
P-38s. The same day Olds' of 479 downed three Me-109s in a running battle
that saw his canopy shot off.
On 26 Sept., P-38s of the 479 downed 19 e/a near Munster. Shortly after
that most P-38s were gradually replaced by P-51s.
The last long-range bomber escort in northern Europe by P-38s was on 19
Nov. '44 when 367FG escorted bombers to Merzig, Germany. FW-190s
attempted to intercept. P-38s downed six with no losses. No bombers were
lost either. It was a good way to end the P-38s air-superiority role in
northern Europe."

 

[KiwiBiggles]

If you shut the throttle in a Hurricane you'd come to a grinding halt; in a Spitfire you just go whistling on.

Maybe this was the inspiration behind the closing scene in the movie "Dunkirk", where the Spitfire carries on fighting even after its fuel has run out, and shoots down the Stuka before carrying on to a low pass over the troops and a deadstick landing on the sand.

 

[XBe02Drvr]

pbehn,

The OV-10 Bronco forbade them although I knew guys who did them. My bet would be the reasons varied by plane. The Eagle doesn't like negative G flight for other than short periods. The Bronco didn't like hammerhead stalls, caused the exhaust "pipe" to come lose if you did a tail slide (know someone who did that to), however it's a non-event in the Eagle. Snap rolls put a lot of stress on a plane and its parts and would guess most planes aren't stressed for doing that repeatedly.

Cheers,
Biff

Biff pretty well covers it here, but I might add that depending on speed and configuration, some a/c could diverge into an ass-over-teakettle tumble that would put stresses on various parts unanticipated by the designers. While not necessarily leading to immediate collapse, undetected damage could (and did) start fatigue cracking and eventual catastrophic failure.
I've read that the G loads imposed by a snap roll in a high performance a/c tend to be more of a sharp onset "impact" variety than the pilot-induced maneuvering kind, thus inducing greater fatigue effects.
Cheers,
Wes

 

[pbehn]

Maybe this was the inspiration behind the closing scene in the movie "Dunkirk", where the Spitfire carries on fighting even after its fuel has run out, and shoots down the Stuka before carrying on to a low pass over the troops and a deadstick landing on the sand.

Maybe, but movie makers always want everything to be like a "Die Hard" movie. I didn't see the movie but read about that scene. If all pilots ran out of fuel over Dunkerque the RAF would have lost most of its fighters in a day. There was a Spitfire lost and recovered from the beach at Dunkerque then restored, but it was piloted by a stockbroker and hit by return fire from a Dornier which doesn't suit todays "narrative".

 

[DarrenW]

The subject of the post is "The Most Underrated Plane of World War Two". Your response pretty much says it all about the attitude concerning the P-38.

Unlike yourself, nobody here is trying to cheapen the heroism and sacrifices that these men displayed during war. But you Sir decided to sh--t on those that happened to fly a different aircraft than the one you so admire. That's where I take issue with your position. I for one am as proud an American as you will find and I'm insulted by your demeaning rhetoric so I will end our conversation hence forth before this turns into another locked thread, all because it devolved into a war of wits between two seemingly grown men who didn't know when to shut their big traps. Good day to you!

 

[swampyankee]

Using the conventional definition of "under-rated," the P-38 wasn't that. One only needs to read popular histories written for most of the post-war era to see that. It was, however, both technically flawed and adversely impacted by insufficient pilot training, issues that became better known with more competent histories.

A lot of factors, many of them not technological, contribute to an aircraft's combat success. Similarly, many non-technological factors contribute to an aircraft's reputation.

 

[Peter Gunn]

I'm not sure how the P-38 could ever be seen as under rated, like swamp says, popular histories treat it quite well, now the P-39 on the other hand...

And I do think the P-39 does get a bit of the short end of the stick, always consider what it did with the VVS, they sure seemed to make it work in their theater.

 

[DarrenW]

Using the conventional definition of "under-rated," the P-38 wasn't that.

Yes and besides, listing aerial engagements where the Lightning made a good showing doesn't prove squat. I can go on and on for months and months posting the same sort of stuff about the Mustang and Hellcat and only scratch the surface of what's available to us, but how would that really strengthen my argument? All of the top American fighters had a role to play during the war and ALL have stories of bravery and sacrifice, and for me to weigh in on which one deserves more credit for the destruction of the Nazi war machine or the Imperial Japanese military is something I wish not to be a part of. And we should also never ignore the contributions made by the other allied nations to this cause, as it most definitely was a coordinated effort.

Of course the Lightning was an outstanding aircraft which deserves the recognition it has received and maybe more so, but not at the expense of the two fighters which garnered the lion's share of aerial victories credited to US pilots. Claiming that it's "underrated" because it's true legacy was somehow stolen by the Mustang and Hellcat is pure idiocy and from that point forward one's credibility has to be seriously questioned. To me it smells like trolling and we all know what that sort of behavior normally leads to here.....

 

[Glider]

Personally my definition of underrated is where an aircraft did excellent work but was overshadowed by another aircraft hence my first choice would be Beaufighter which was overshadowed by the Mosquito. Or just not given credit normally because they were on the Axis side.
A second choice of mine is the Halifax which is overshadowed by the Lancaster but from the Mk III version onwards was almost a match for the Lancaster in performance.
Third is the Baltimore which was quite a decent aircraft and well used in the Middle East but outside areas such as this forum no one has ever heard of.
Fourth the Do217 always, always overlooked
Equal fifth almost any Japanese aircraft outside the Zero, their seaplanes were exceptional equal to anything in any allied airforce take your pick

 

[Timppa]

In contrast to the other topic what do you think the most underrated aircraft of WW2 was?

My shortlist :F2A, Bf-110, I-153, I-16, Il-4, Ki-43, P-39, C-47.
Of these, I would choose the I-153, Il-4(DB-3F ) being the close second.

 

[Hairog]

Unlike yourself, nobody here is trying to cheapen the heroism and sacrifices that these men displayed during war. But you Sir decided to sh--t on those that happened to fly a different aircraft than the one you so admire. That's where I take issue with your position. I for one am as proud an American as you will find and I'm insulted by your demeaning rhetoric so I will end our conversation hence forth before this turns into another locked thread, all because it devolved into a war of wits between two seemingly grown men who didn't know when to shut their big traps. Good day to you!

I guess we'll just have to chalk this up to a miscommunication. I did not intend to denigrate the pilots who flew other planes. I certainly did not try "to cheapen the heroism and sacrifices that these men displayed during war."

I'm sorry you misunderstood my intent.

 

[Hairog]

"Claiming that it's "underrated" because it's true legacy was somehow stolen by the Mustang and Hellcat is pure idiocy and from that point forward one's credibility has to be seriously questioned. To me it smells like trolling and we all know what that sort of behavior normally leads to here....."

What does calling someone an idiot, questioning their credibility, calling them a troll and putting words in their mouth lead to in here...? I guess we'll see.

To me the monumental snub the Lightning has received is what makes it the most underrated aircraft. Before the Mustang took over, the introduction of the P-38 as a long range escort brought the Luftwaffe to a point where defeat was inevitable.

Combat radius helps to win air wars. This simple observation sums up much of what distinguished the P-38 from its contemporaries, and also why this aircraft must be considered the single most significant fighter in the US inventory in W.W.II. The critical air battles, when Allied strength was still building up and Axis strength was at its peak, were fought by the P-38 force, deep inside hostile airspace against a numerically superior enemy.

All other parameters being equal, it was the radius of the Lightning which allowed the ETO daylight bombing offensive to succeed at a time when losses were high and long term success questionable. By the time Mustang numbers built up in the ETO, the Luftwaffe had already crossed the knee in the Lanchesterian attrition war curve and defeat was inevitable. While the much admired P-51 made a critical contribution, it is worth noting that cumulative deployments of the Merlin powered P-51 matched the P-38 only as late as the end of 1944, which is clearly at odds with the established mythology. With the 8th AF, the long range escort load was shared equally by the P-38 and P-51 throughout the decisive first half of 1944.

In the Pacific, where land based air grappled with the Japanese, the Lightning was the foremost fighter, destroying more Japanese aircraft than any other Allied fighter. The air battles over New Guinea, the Solomons, the invasion of the Phillipines and later Okinawa were all campaigns where the radius and performance of the P-38 were fundamental advantages over Japanese air assets.

The perception of the P-38 as a mediocre aircraft is clearly the result of wartime propaganda run unchecked, and lay interpretations of period statements. The historical record clearly indicates that the big twin was there when it really mattered and there can be no greater a compliment for its designers. It was the aircraft which allowed the USAAF to play an offensive strategy almost from the very beginning of combat operations.

The P-38 was without doubt the strategically most important American fighter of World War II.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Alright guys, calm down, have a beer and relax.

 

[GregP]

Another thing that contributes to combat success is opportunity. If you assign a fighter to a role where it will see many less enemy planes, it will have less success, even if it is a better fighter with equal pilots.

Not saying that the case for anything, but it is true nonetheless. For instance, the FM-2 Wildcat was assigned to Jeep carriers and was used to mop up what the main fleets bypassed. It did a great job, but also didn't generally fight the quality of opponent that the F6F did in anywhere NEAR the numbers. I am not implying anything bad about the Wildcat or its pilots except that it wasn't exactly on the front lines after the Hellcat and Corsair showed up and took over from the Wildcat, and it fought less than first line aircraft in many cases. Still, someone and some plane had to do the job, and the Wildcat did it quite well, acquiring an outstanding record along the way. No slight intended or stated ... just observing the situation from the vantage of decades later.

 

[Stig1207]

The P-38 began escorting 8th AAF bombers just 6-7 weeks before the P-51 entered service in the ETO. There only one group, the 55th, flying those early escort missions, so it seems rather unlikely that the Lightning would have had a significant impact before the Mustangs show up.

 

[wuzak]

The P-38 began escorting 8th AAF bombers just 6-7 weeks before the P-51 entered service in the ETO. There only one group, the 55th, flying those early escort missions, so it seems rather unlikely that the Lightning would have had a significant impact before the Mustangs show up.

Weren't the first P-38 squadrons originally sent to Britain diverted to North Africa?

 

[wuzak]

The P-38 began escorting 8th AAF bombers just 6-7 weeks before the P-51 entered service in the ETO. There only one group, the 55th, flying those early escort missions, so it seems rather unlikely that the Lightning would have had a significant impact before the Mustangs show up.

Mostly the escort missions prior to that were by RAF Spitfires (short distances) and P-47s (slightly longer distances).