Although 390 mph at 22,800 feet is sometimes cited (eg by William Green), Piero Prato in "The Caprione Reggiane Fighters 1938-1945" says that during testing in July-August 1942 the first prototype reached 421 mph at 22,965 feet. The second prototype, fitted in April 1943 with "a German DB special engine" flown by a German pilot reached 447 mph at 23,950 feet. Perhaps this "special engine" was a DB605ASM, ASC or D with enlarged supercharger and higher boost. Production aircraft might of course not been as fast as the prototypes, but 447 mph was spectacular in 1943 and still up with the best until war's end.
Most Useful Plane Not Produced
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I was using the data from the 'Caratteristice velivoli italiani' manual, that states 628.5 km/h for the prototype of Re2005, as of September 1942. The comparisons at Guidonia test centre, conducted in February 1943, note that Fw 190A-5 (good for 410 mph) is faster than any of the Italian fighters, even vs. the fastest of them, the MC.205V.
The greatest speed figure I was able to find in Italian language (book by Sergio Govi) is dated 25th Nov. 1941, when the people from Regianne suggested that their new fighter will be doing 642 km/h @ 7200 m (with DB 605 engine making 1200 HP at 5800 m without ram) while carrying 1 cannon and 2 HMGs.
(actually, when other sales people were promising the moon, this is an utterly realistic calculation)
Same source notes the speed from Italian tests at Guidonia from late December of 1942, where the Re.2005 does 629 km/h.
The Db 605 versions with big S/C entered service in Germany in mid-1944.
BTW - saying 'a German DB special engine' instead of just noting the engine type?? Hopefully you will not hold it against me when saying that Re.2005 have had just decent performance, but nothing spectacular.
wuzak
Captain
Griffon development was paused so that Rolls-Royce could concentrate on improving the performance of the Merlin. The Battle of Britain was happening, or about to happen, so the Merlin was given #1 priority.
At that time, the effort that Napier put into the Sabre had no bearing on the success or failure of the battle, as Napier had little or no involvement in engines or aircraft for the BoB.
The Sabre project started in 1934 or 1935. The Griffon II project started in 1938 (the Griffon I being a different engine based on the Rolls-Royce R) and was intended for naval aircraft. At some stage in 1939 a member of the MAP suggested that Griffon II may be made to fit in the Spitfire, so the engine was redesigned, primarily the accessories, to that end.
wuzak
Captain
Supermarine proposed a Griffon Spitfire variant in late 1939. The Spitfire IV (later renamed to XX) first flew nearly 2 years later. The Spitfire XII went into squadron service in 1943.
The Vulture was a problematic engine, but the issues were not beyond solving.
The Tornado was cancelled because the Vulture was cancelled. The Vulture was cancelled on request by Rolls-Royce so that they may concentrate on the Merlin and Griffon. A few other engines were cancelled at the same time as the Vulture.
In 1941 the Spitfire V had close to the performance of the Hellcat. A Spitfire III with Merlin XX would have similar or better performance than the Hellcat, also in 1941.
Many thanks for the 'Caratteristice velivoli italiani' manual - a great resource.
Our sources differ then. Note however that Caratteristice shows the DB605 performance as 1200 hp at 2600 rpm (climb and combat rating), not 2800 rpm (emergency rating) which was 1355 hp. That however would not account for the whole discrepancy.
As to the second prototype, the performance achieved is suggestive of a DB605 with large supercharger and MW50, good for 1600hp at 6000 m without ram - perhaps a prototype or pre-series example. BTW, Heinz Knoke flew his 109 so fitted in April 1944 and says of the MW50 that "it is something that I myself tested" (though he doesn't say where or when) and "The new superchargers are marvellous".
I would argue that the He-100 would be the most useful if not decisive plane in the war. It was on par with the Bf-109, some thought it might have had an overall edge. However its big trick would be its 630 mile range vs the Bf-109's 375 mile range circa late 1939. The reason this would be decisive is that in Battle of Britain the Bf-109 could only make it to about the east side of London and fight for 5 minutes, closer targets 10-15 minutes of fight time. Exchanging even 200 Bf-109's for the equivalent number of He-100's would likely have been enough.
Shortround6
Major General
What would the range of He 100 have been if fitted with self sealing fuel tanks?
What would the combat effectiveness of the He 100 have been during the BoB with the guns available during the BoB? Germans didn't get the gun through the propeller to work until late fall or early winter of 1940.
What would the combat losses of the He 100 have been with the surface cooling system?
The He 100 might have been a lot less effective as a combat plane than it's speed/range/book gun fit suggest.
What would the combat effectiveness of the He 100 have been during the BoB with the guns available during the BoB? Germans didn't get the gun through the propeller to work until late fall or early winter of 1940.
What would the combat losses of the He 100 have been with the surface cooling system?
The He 100 might have been a lot less effective as a combat plane than it's speed/range/book gun fit suggest.
RW Mk. III
Airman 1st Class
Evaporative cooling never made it into a properly operational military aircraft. Despite many nations and companies sinking huge amounts of effort into making it successful.
It was hugely complex compared to radiators, requiring much more man hours and materials to produce.
It turned the airframe manufacture into the heat rejection system manufacture as well. That makes it extremely difficult to decentralize manufacture, which makes it much more vulnerable to strategic bombing.
It made for a profoundly fragile aircraft even before someone starts shooting at it.
It didn't readily allow for improvements in engine power. (The more power output an engine produces, the more thermal waste it has to dissipate. They could never get the He100 not to overheat despite adding a retractable radiator and utilizing virtually all of the useful surface area of the aircraft for the evap system. What if six months later they realized they need another 300hp to remain competitive?) The airframe is married to the engine it was designed for, at more or less the power it was at at design.
He100 could have been a great aircraft, IF the decision to use evap cooling had been dropped very early in design.
Not picking on the He100 here either, the British went very far down the evaporative rabbit hole before giving up. It hamstrung fighter design and development for a good chunk of the 1930's. The Italians and Americans also had dalliances with it.
By the time Heinkel was variously afflicted by the evaporative cooling kool-aid with the He100, He119 and He177 they were just throwing good money after other's bad.
The manual says 1250 HP, but yes, the DB 605A running at 2800 rpm (October 1943?) will add another 100+ HP on that. Good for ~640 km/h
It is very much possible that a Re.2005 prototype have gotten the DB 603A engine some time in 1943, akin to the Re.2006 or G.56; later was good for 425 mph IIRC.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
To be honest, the He112B would have been a better option than the problematic He100.
It had speed, range and was armed with cannon at a time when most contemporaries still had rifle-caliber Mgs.
It had speed, range and was armed with cannon at a time when most contemporaries still had rifle-caliber Mgs.
I'd try to have He 112 in production instead of the Bf 110...
Clayton Magnet
Staff Sergeant
- 903
- Feb 16, 2013
What is the advantage of He 112's over the 109's? greater development potential?
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,028
- Jun 25, 2013
I don't really care to revisit which opportunities for better weapons the nazis missed; the world would have been a much better place had they decided to start their genocidal rampage with the same level of technology as their non-existent blue-eyed Aryan ancestors had used, where a spear thrower would be advanced weapons tech.
For the Allies, now...
In addition to the Consilidated TBY Seawolf (arguably better specs than the TBF), I think the B-39 (basically a B-29 with Allison V-3420 engines) should have been pushed a little harder.
For the Allies, now...
In addition to the Consilidated TBY Seawolf (arguably better specs than the TBF), I think the B-39 (basically a B-29 with Allison V-3420 engines) should have been pushed a little harder.
Over Bf 109? Better cockpit, better undercarriage, it did already carried fuel tanks in the wing (so the extra fuel capacity might be easier to add). It already has a cantilever tail and retractable tailwheel for a bit less drag/more speed.
The Bf 109 seems to be easier to produce, and, at least when tested against the 1st, 'big-winged' He 112, it performed better.
Although, my idea is/was that He 112 replaces Bf 110...
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The He112 was actually a contender against the Bf109 (and the Ar80 and Fw159) for the RLM's fighter request in 1933/34.
The early He112 prototypes didn't perform as well as the Bf109 (not by much, however) and the 109 won the contract.
Later versions of the He112 kept improving and may have had a decent shot at being produced for the Luftwaffe if Werner Von Braun would have quit taking Heinkel's prototypes for JATO testing.
It was these tests that kept putting the 112 further behind in it"s improvements.
The early He112 prototypes didn't perform as well as the Bf109 (not by much, however) and the 109 won the contract.
Later versions of the He112 kept improving and may have had a decent shot at being produced for the Luftwaffe if Werner Von Braun would have quit taking Heinkel's prototypes for JATO testing.
It was these tests that kept putting the 112 further behind in it"s improvements.
RW Mk. III
Airman 1st Class
If we're talking about heavy fighters it's a shame the Arsenal VB10 didn't get a chance.
To Tomo's point: An He112 loaded down with internal fuel and/or droptanks is a much more sensible proposition than the bf110... I realize it wasn't meant for that role but it would have worked better.
To Tomo's point: An He112 loaded down with internal fuel and/or droptanks is a much more sensible proposition than the bf110... I realize it wasn't meant for that role but it would have worked better.
Drop tanks were a known thing in second half of 1930s, not just that US fighter aircraft carried them, but also He 51 and Hs 123.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I agree with Tomo regarding the He112 instead of the Bf110.
Granted, the 112 was a bit heavier than the 109, but testing (on various V models) showed the 112 had favorable turning properties over the 109, although the 109 had a better roll rate.
The 112 was also tested in combat alongside the 109 with the Condor Legion in Spain, where it performed well and earned the nickname of "Kanonvogel" for it's ground attack properties.
Also substituting the 112 for the 110 meant more DB6xx engines for fighters (both Bf109 and He112).
This not to say eliminate the Bf110 entirely, as it proved to be a valuable workhorse in many roles, but remove it from the "heavy fighter" and escort role.
Granted, the 112 was a bit heavier than the 109, but testing (on various V models) showed the 112 had favorable turning properties over the 109, although the 109 had a better roll rate.
The 112 was also tested in combat alongside the 109 with the Condor Legion in Spain, where it performed well and earned the nickname of "Kanonvogel" for it's ground attack properties.
Also substituting the 112 for the 110 meant more DB6xx engines for fighters (both Bf109 and He112).
This not to say eliminate the Bf110 entirely, as it proved to be a valuable workhorse in many roles, but remove it from the "heavy fighter" and escort role.
How would the HE 112 compare to the BF 110 in the night fighter role ?
Shortround6
Major General
No back seater to work the radar. Assuming you can fit early radar into the plane.
