CORSNING
Tech Sergeant
It just hit me, the SBD is not on the list!
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lol...nope, because it's not a fighter!It just hit me, the SBD is not on the list!
It just hit me, the SBD is not on the list!
What do you base that last sentence on. All I have read indicates otherwise. I dont mean this to be confrontational. I am honestly interested in perhaps a few other books I should read.
caught unaware, he looked back to spot an audacious carrier bomber off his port quarter. After evading Tokushige, Dudley Adams of VS-71 had run across Sakai's flight and actually stalked the four Zeros ascending through the clouds. Swiftly Sakai and his three friends climbed above and easily drew away from their much slower opponent. Now safe, Sakai turned the tables with a high-side run, and his first bursts forced the SBD to stall and fall away toward the water. Gunfire killed Harry Elliott and painfully wounded Adams. At 1337 he ditched 71-S-10 astern of the Screening Group. The Dewey left the X-RAY transports and rescued him eight minutes later.
Following the rude interruption, Sakai resumed his flight toward the 4th Air Group. Ahead at 7,800 feet he noticed what appeared to be eight Grumman fighters in tight formation almost begging to be ambushed. Unfortunately for him the targets proved to be Lt. Carl H. Horenburger's eight VB-6 and VS-5 SBDs still toting their 500-pound bombs. They observed Zeros and closed formation even more to meet their attack. Too late did Sakai realize his disastrous mistake, but he had committed to a low-deflection stern attack into the muzzles of sixteen .30-caliber machine guns. With no other choice, he pressed his run to the limit against the right side of the shallow Vee. Kakimoto followed closely, but the other two broke off in time. The radiomen caught the lead Zero in a wicked cross fire. One bullet shattered the windscreen, tore into Sakai's head, and temporarily blinded him. Thrown into inverted flight, his smoking Zero passed up over the formation and rolled into a straight dive toward the water. Kakimoto dipped beneath for a pass against the left side, but broke off when the eight SBDs flew into a cloud bank.
I apreciate the humorbut nobody, certainly not me iis making the case that the SBD was a premier fighter. Only that for a dive bomber or any kind of bomber for that matter it was exceptional even outscoring many of its contemporary fighter designs.
Does it matter which end of the plane got the kill?
In Lundstrums 2nd volume of The First Team, Dauntless's shot down so many Japanese 4 engine flying boat scouts that wildcat squadron was getting mad. In the attacks that damaged Enterprise and crippled Hornet, the returning SBD's piled right into the fight and picked off a good number of enemy aircraft, several after they had dropped their bombs so they weren't exactly picking off bombed up sitting ducks. The only aircraft that seemed to have a chance around an SBD was in fact a Zero, anything else was in serious trouble.
Ok that's one instance out of over a hundred. Doesnt seem to have anything to do with your assertion that front kills for the SBD were few and far between. Imho.It's based upon Sakai's own account of what happened.
Read First Team vol 1 and 2. Volume 2, page 56 recounts Sakai's near fatal encounter with SBDs. He and his wingman and just tangled with another formation of SBDs and scattered it into broken cloud:
Ok that's one instance out of over a hundred. Doesnt seem to have anything to do with your assertion that front kills for the SBD were few and far between. Imho.
A minute after Sellstrom's furious attack, it was the turn of Scouting Five on anti–torpedo-plane patrol to feel the sting of Zuikaku fighters. Deployed loosely in pairs, the eight SBDs turned up between the two groups of Zuikaku torpedo planes, but in position to intercept neither. There was no way the SBDs, cruising at 1,500 feet, could overhaul faster-moving torpedo planes with altitude advantage. The kankō were past before the SBDs could react. Some of the VS-5 pilots never even saw them. Suddenly there was trouble. Birney Strong glanced up to behold the sickening sight of three Zeros peeling off into an overhead attack on his dispersed SBDs. They were the three fighters of Lieut. Tsukamoto's Zuikaku 14th Shōtai, surprised to find nine "Curtiss bombers" (as the Japanese called the Dauntlesses) flying in their area. Their amazement brief, they tore into Strong's division. On the first pass, Tsukamoto and his wingmen shot off the tail of Ens. Kendall C. Campbell's SBD, then blasted a second Dauntless from the sky. They kept the surviving SBDs too busy to join forces for their mutual defense. Joining in the fight were PO1c Kanō's three Zuikaku Zeros, and they went after Woodhull's four SBDs as well. For the next several minutes, the Zuikaku Zeros made life miserable or impossible for Scouting Five, eventually accounting for four SBDs, flown by Lieut. (jg) Earl V. Johnson, Ens. Samuel J. Underhill, Ens. Edward B. Kinzer, and Ens. Campbell. In return Scouting Five claimed four Zeros shot down, one to Lieut. (jg) Stanley W. Vejtasa (later a renowned ace with Flatley's Fighting Ten). The Japanese, however, lost no fighters in this combat. (First Team Vol. 1, p250)
If you've read Lundstrom then you'll know that SBD's massively overclaimed IJ fighter kills, and not by 30 or 40% but by 4 and 5 to 1. There's no particular reason why an SBD-3 would do better than a Skua II when engaging slower attack aircraft, but it could not meet fighters on anything like equal terms.
There's no particular reason why a Wildcat should do better against a Zero than a Spitfire V, but it did. About 1 to 1 for Wildcat and 7-1 for Spit V.
Not sure why you keep mentioning the Skua, how many Skua/Zero matchups were there? The specs show a Skua top speed of 225 with 4 303's firing forward and 1 Lewis gun in the back. The Dauntless -5 had 2 forward 50's, 2 belt fed 30's in the back, 25-35 mph faster, better climb and probably turned better.
I doubt a Skua could catch a Kate unless it had a lot of altitude advantage and I'd take 2 50's over 4 303's everyday of the week and twice on Sunday
Interesting...and what is the source for this?The most famous SBD front gun kill claim is by Swede Vejtasa on 8 May 1942 but it never happened:
Interesting...and what is the source for this?
What about Midway, Japanese attack on Yorktown. On the way there the Zero escort saw 4 SBD's returning and jumped them. I believe 1 Zero was downed, at least one other was so damaged he had to return to Hiryu, no SBD's were downed (although the flight was lost and never heard from again).
Name another dive bomber that could survive against enemy fighters in that situation. A Skua? Doubtful. A Stuka? Stuka parties got their name for a reason. Could 4 Hurricanes survive that situation? 4 Spitfires? 4 P39's? 4 P40's? I seriously doubt it.
SBD wasn't a fighter, but it was tough, very maneuverable without a bomb and had a record that much exceeded its paper performance stats.
Kobayashi proceeded out at low level and only gradually gained height. Visibility seemed better close to the water. About a half hour after departure, the Japanese stumbled upon a formation of six American planes which they thought were torpedo planes involved in the strike on the Kidō Butai. Shigematsu's six Zeros peeled off to ambush the enemy cruising low over the water. The Americans proved tougher than they looked. In an extended fight, the Japanese shot down no bombers outright, but the American gunners pared the little escort to four Zeros. Both W.O. Minegishi Yoshijirō (2nd Shōtai leader) and wingman PO1c Sasaki Hitoshi had their fighters badly shot up, so badly that they had to abort the mission and head back. When they made it home around 1230, Minegishi landed safely on board the Hiryū, but Sasaki had to ditch. No doubt highly irritated, the tough Shigematsu gathered his three Zeros and set off after the kanbaku, hopefully to catch up before Kobayashi spotted the enemy.
Shigematsu's fight is unsung from the American point of view, although his opponents had to be Enterprise dive bombers looking for their carrier. No surviving SBD crews reported fighting Zeros under these circumstances, and it appears none of Shigematsu's tormentors were rescued. Lieut. Charles R. Ware, VS-6 flight officer, had led most of his 3rd Division back to Point Option where the SBDs were seen by other pilots. Thereafter Ware's little group disappeared. It seems likely that Ware's division, perhaps reinforced by a few other SBDs gathered on the way, encountered the Japanese strike group and put up a stout defense against the six Zeros. Then from battle damage or fuel starvation, the SBDs ditched, and their crews were not recovered.
Spitfire and Hurricanes faired poorly against the Zero even through 1943
You know, if some idiot comes along 20, 30, 40, 50 or even 100 years later
and calls a veteran that put his life on the line several times a liar, well, I guess
that idiot can just kiss my ass.
In 1943 Hurricanes were fighting over Burma/India which was a Japanese Army campaign. How often did they meet Naval Zeros. Spitfires fought Zeros over Darwin but that was combats measured in the tens.
Actually that was the Ferry speed @ 14K ft. http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/SBD-5_PD_-_August_6_1942.pdfThe DBD-5 being used as a scout (clean condition) could
reach 260 mph or more at 13,800 ft. Wind resistance kept
it from flying faster on 1,000 hp. It was a very maneuverable aircraft.
Standard Aircraft Characteristics Arcive
scroll down to the SBD.
Yes something's wrong somewhere but that doesn't mean it's the pilot that's incorrect. God knows record keeping to was often subject to the fog of war.Hey bud, I don't think that it's RCAFson intention to disparage any particular person, and he did in fact provide a reference for what he typed. I know what your saying, but whether it's fog of war or an individual lying (there are certainly cases of both) but when 'Tom' engages squadron xyz on a specific date and claims x many shot down and in fact enemy records say that all of those aircraft were recorded as returning from that mission then there is a problem somewhere.
Respectfully Pinsog