Museum sheds light on Canada's wartime effort

[vikingBerserker]

I believe the thread is Canada's Wartime Effort, not Australia particated more in the PTO. Just beacause a Canadian served with another Common Wealth Unit does not take away from the fact he is a Canadian fighting in the PTO.

 

[syscom3]

Sys, let me put a question to you
If someone were to post belittling the US contribution to WWI because they didn't send as many troops as the other Allies, and didn't take as many casualties, how would you feel? My money says you would be insulted and offended - as you should be.

But the US did send a sizable contribution, with quite a few divisions waiting to be transported to Europe before the war ended. So just what historic facts are you going to twist?

That is exactly what you are doing to our Canadian members here. It's crass, it's offensive and saying that you are just trying to be rational is no excuse. We all try to be rational here (most of us anyway). But you have really crossed a line here and just seem to be intent on steaming further beyond the pale.

Hey, Im just saying the Canadian contribution is exaggerated.

And your argument that the Canadians 'shouldn't have been in HK' makes no sense at all. They were Commonwealth soldiers defending Commonwealth territory. End of discussion. They had as much right and reason to be there as English troops did to be in India, or Rhodesians did to be on Bomber Command bases in the UK. That's how the Commonwealth and empire worked. It really is that simple.

They went to HK and did absolutely nothing of value. Far to few in number, poorly trained and led, and sent to a location that had zero chance of defending itself. The Brits knew they were the proverbial speed bumps of no use, and the Canadian Govt knew it to. A smart govt and an intelligent military would have sent them to Malaya where the would have value.

Either way, that was the end of Canada's contribution to the war in that part of the war.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

But the US did send a sizable contribution, with quite a few divisions waiting to be transported to Europe before the war ended. So just what historic facts are you going to twist?

And what contribution did they make that was any different than the Canadians in WW2? I am sure that if it were some other county, you would be downplaying it. Ain't that right???

Hey, Im just saying the Canadian contribution is exaggerated.

 

[pbfoot]

I hardly think the war effort of Canada has been exagerated if anything the opposite is true , the US effort on the other hand has been exagerated in the minds of most simply because of mass media or popular culture , if you ask the average Joe about any war you'll find that most are not even aware of Canada s involvment . Every time a movie is made where there is no American invvolvment is apparent the Canadian character becomes an American eg The Great Escape Movie or even non existant such as the Longest Day.
Hong Kong was debacle is true but so were the Philipines and Wake Island . Very little is mentioned about the who escorted the 8th AF prior to the arrival of the P47 and P51 it sure wasn't P40's . The US is not alone in this the Brits are not much better. Work calls now but I will expand later

 

[vikingBerserker]

Either way, that was the end of Canada's contribution to the war in that part of the war.

Am I understanding you correctly that according to you after this event no Canadians served in the PTO until 1945?

----------------------

Another point of fact I would like to throw out there is Canada alone produced 95% of Nickel and 50% of the aluminum required by the Allies. That fact alone makes Canada's contribution "under-exaggerated".

 

[Glider]

The war started in Dec 1941 for the US.

Tell that to the relatives of the crew of the USS Ruben James

 

[BombTaxi]

I give up sys. It seems that you just want to argue straight past the point and pretend that the US won everything on it's own. Fine, go ahead. Your method of reckoning contribution to wars by the number of troops sent and casualties sustained is simply appalling.

I wasn't going to twist any facts - merely to point out that the US committed far fewer troops than the UK, France, Russia, Austria-Hungary, Germany, or even Italy. And also to point out that total US combat deaths were fewer that those experienced by Greece or Bulgaria. This makes no difference to me at all - I still respect the US contribution to WWI. But surely you will have to admit by your own calculus that the US contribution was less relevant because it was not as big as most other countires

Of course, that won't happen - you are totally incapable of seeing any historical view that doesn't revolve around the USA and it's superiority over the rest of the world. You started this thread supposedly to praise the Canadian war effort. As soon as people came foward to add their praise and reveal all the things the Canucks did, you got scared and started running the Canadians down in case they got more praise than the US. It's pathetic sys, I really have no other words for it. I shudder to think what you might have to say to the British contributions to WWII and the wars we have fought alongside you since then

 

[Airframes]

It's a shame that all this has happened, as I was originally going to respond to the initial post, by expressing my interest in the story regarding the chap working at Juno beach. Does anyone happen to know how one would go about finding such an occupation? It would be a marvelous thing to be able to do, and I have the time, the interest, and at least a little of the knowledge to undertake such a worthy task.
Of course, whether my current disability would allow me to do such work is another matter!

 

[michaelmaltby]

BombTaxi - as a Canadian I sincerely thank you for your intelligent words. I started on the same vein some time ago - but after your "appalling" observation to Sys I realized that you were making my point better than I myself could.

I try not patronize people but in this case - with Sys - it is unfortunately unavoidable.

Sys is having a little "sport" with Canadians - turning our crank so to speak Seen this behavior from American males - educated American males - who like to watch Canadians react. Such behavior usually takes place .... IN BARS. Understand what I'm saying, Sys?

So a little education and perspective is coming you way, respectfully.

What this thread - and many others in this otherwise wonderful forum - have revealed is that it is possible for otherwise intelligent people - males - to get further and further off topic - and the further away from topic they get the deeper they dig in. [Soren's Germany-Japan-Russia thread is a classic ongoing example of this -- just how far things can progress beyond common sense logic + facts].

Canada's participation militarily and economically in WW2 can NOT be discussed in isolation from WW1. In both - Canada punched way, way, way beyond it's weight. What our American friend refuses to acknowledge is that the true measure of a country's value as an ally is its participation as PERCENTAGE OF POPULATION and GDP. And as our American friend knows from his own country's experience (sadly) the measure of participation is VOLUNTEER participation. Canada has never fielded a conscript force in modern times.

Canada lost an entire generation of Canadian young men in their very Promise and Prime ... (Britain, France, Germany, Australia etc also did) in a way that the US who was late to the party by THREE YEARS did not experience. That is not a criticism of the US - that is simply fact.

Having fought in EVERY major WW1 battle and continuously being deployed as SHOCK TROOPS - in 1918 the Canadian Army [Canada's 100 Days) rolled back the German Army - taking more ground and more prisoners than their MUCH LARGER American ally with their great equipment and good rations.

Those Canadian men who died 1914-1918 did not live to have the sons of their own to go to war in 1939. And the ones who did return in 1918 -- many had lost the desire or instinct to reproduce -- my moms two brothers and dad being examples dear to my heart.

Sys .. don't talk baseball-stats-WW2-history to me cause it doesn't mean a thing. Percentage of population (volunteer) participation and % GDP are the only honest measures and if you'd stop and think for a moment you realize I am right.

But keep cranking buddy ... I got the clutch depressed and the spark retarded

MM
Toronto

 

[Matt308]

 

[RabidAlien]

BombTaxi - as a Canadian I sincerely thank you for your intelligent words. I started on the same vein some time ago - but after your "appalling" observation to Sys I realized that you were making my point better than I myself could.

I try not patronize people but in this case - with Sys - it is unfortunately unavoidable.

Sys is having a little "sport" with Canadians - turning our crank so to speak Seen this behavior from American males - educated American males - who like to watch Canadians react. Such behavior usually takes place .... IN BARS. Understand what I'm saying, Sys?

So a little education and perspective is coming you way, respectfully.

What this thread - and many others in this otherwise wonderful forum - have revealed is that it is possible for otherwise intelligent people - males - to get further and further off topic - and the further away from topic they get the deeper they dig in. [Soren's Germany-Japan-Russia thread is a classic ongoing example of this -- just how far things can progress beyond common sense logic + facts].

Canada's participation militarily and economically in WW2 can NOT be discussed in isolation from WW1. In both - Canada punched way, way, way beyond it's weight. What our American friend refuses to acknowledge is that the true measure of a country's value as an ally is its participation as PERCENTAGE OF POPULATION and GDP. And as our American friend knows from his own country's experience (sadly) the measure of participation is VOLUNTEER participation. Canada has never fielded a conscript force in modern times.

Canada lost an entire generation of Canadian young men in their very Promise and Prime ... (Britain, France, Germany, Australia etc also did) in a way that the US who was late to the party by THREE YEARS did not experience. That is not a criticism of the US - that is simply fact.

Having fought in EVERY major WW1 battle and continuously being deployed as SHOCK TROOPS - in 1918 the Canadian Army [Canada's 100 Days) rolled back the German Army - taking more ground and more prisoners than their MUCH LARGER American ally with their great equipment and good rations.

Those Canadian men who died 1914-1918 did not live to have the sons of their own to go to war in 1939. And the ones who did return in 1918 -- many had lost the desire or instinct to reproduce -- my moms two brothers and dad being examples dear to my heart.

Sys .. don't talk baseball-stats-WW2-history to me cause it doesn't mean a thing. Percentage of population (volunteer) participation and % GDP are the only honest measures and if you'd stop and think for a moment you realize I am right.

But keep cranking buddy ... I got the clutch depressed and the spark retarded

MM
Toronto

 

[Catch22]

BombTaxi - as a Canadian I sincerely thank you for your intelligent words. I started on the same vein some time ago - but after your "appalling" observation to Sys I realized that you were making my point better than I myself could.

I try not patronize people but in this case - with Sys - it is unfortunately unavoidable.

Sys is having a little "sport" with Canadians - turning our crank so to speak Seen this behavior from American males - educated American males - who like to watch Canadians react. Such behavior usually takes place .... IN BARS. Understand what I'm saying, Sys?

So a little education and perspective is coming you way, respectfully.

What this thread - and many others in this otherwise wonderful forum - have revealed is that it is possible for otherwise intelligent people - males - to get further and further off topic - and the further away from topic they get the deeper they dig in. [Soren's Germany-Japan-Russia thread is a classic ongoing example of this -- just how far things can progress beyond common sense logic + facts].

Canada's participation militarily and economically in WW2 can NOT be discussed in isolation from WW1. In both - Canada punched way, way, way beyond it's weight. What our American friend refuses to acknowledge is that the true measure of a country's value as an ally is its participation as PERCENTAGE OF POPULATION and GDP. And as our American friend knows from his own country's experience (sadly) the measure of participation is VOLUNTEER participation. Canada has never fielded a conscript force in modern times.

Canada lost an entire generation of Canadian young men in their very Promise and Prime ... (Britain, France, Germany, Australia etc also did) in a way that the US who was late to the party by THREE YEARS did not experience. That is not a criticism of the US - that is simply fact.

Having fought in EVERY major WW1 battle and continuously being deployed as SHOCK TROOPS - in 1918 the Canadian Army [Canada's 100 Days) rolled back the German Army - taking more ground and more prisoners than their MUCH LARGER American ally with their great equipment and good rations.

Those Canadian men who died 1914-1918 did not live to have the sons of their own to go to war in 1939. And the ones who did return in 1918 -- many had lost the desire or instinct to reproduce -- my moms two brothers and dad being examples dear to my heart.

Sys .. don't talk baseball-stats-WW2-history to me cause it doesn't mean a thing. Percentage of population (volunteer) participation and % GDP are the only honest measures and if you'd stop and think for a moment you realize I am right.

But keep cranking buddy ... I got the clutch depressed and the spark retarded

MM
Toronto

VERY well put. And thanks BT.

 

[vikingBerserker]

NICE!, and A-Fricken-Men!!!!

 

[BombTaxi]

Thank you guys, glad to be of some service to you 8) And spot on MM, you have expressed some things there that I wasn't sure how to say.

I've been to Vimy and I've stood at the foot of that memorial and realised just how much Canada gave in the Great War. Ypres, Arras, Vimy, Passchendaele, the final offensive... the Canadians were there. 25 years later, you did it all again, at Dieppe, in Normandy, over the Ruhr, in the North Atlantic. And you're still doing it now in Afghanistan. That deserves some gratitude in my book

 

[michaelmaltby]

Are you getting all this, Sys? It's mot personal, buddy, believe me

I DO understand your underlying point. The US is a BIG society and a productive one. In 1939 your Depression wasn't over ... economy-industrial activity at about 35%. When it came - Pearl Harbour was a blessing [forgive me]. The US economy wasn't cooking fully till 1944.

Other than Russian and China - the US can't discuss the "contribution" of your allies honestly -- or at least it's not easy to do so when you're paying the freight. I appreciate that but you are blessed my American friend to have the great allies you have had - the Commonwealth Nations. Time and again our forces do MORE with LESS.

L'audace .. toujours l'audace.

MM

 

[zoul310]

BombTaxi - as a Canadian I sincerely thank you for your intelligent words. I started on the same vein some time ago - but after your "appalling" observation to Sys I realized that you were making my point better than I myself could.

I try not patronize people but in this case - with Sys - it is unfortunately unavoidable.

Sys is having a little "sport" with Canadians - turning our crank so to speak Seen this behavior from American males - educated American males - who like to watch Canadians react. Such behavior usually takes place .... IN BARS. Understand what I'm saying, Sys?

So a little education and perspective is coming you way, respectfully.

What this thread - and many others in this otherwise wonderful forum - have revealed is that it is possible for otherwise intelligent people - males - to get further and further off topic - and the further away from topic they get the deeper they dig in. [Soren's Germany-Japan-Russia thread is a classic ongoing example of this -- just how far things can progress beyond common sense logic + facts].

Canada's participation militarily and economically in WW2 can NOT be discussed in isolation from WW1. In both - Canada punched way, way, way beyond it's weight. What our American friend refuses to acknowledge is that the true measure of a country's value as an ally is its participation as PERCENTAGE OF POPULATION and GDP. And as our American friend knows from his own country's experience (sadly) the measure of participation is VOLUNTEER participation. Canada has never fielded a conscript force in modern times.

Canada lost an entire generation of Canadian young men in their very Promise and Prime ... (Britain, France, Germany, Australia etc also did) in a way that the US who was late to the party by THREE YEARS did not experience. That is not a criticism of the US - that is simply fact.

Having fought in EVERY major WW1 battle and continuously being deployed as SHOCK TROOPS - in 1918 the Canadian Army [Canada's 100 Days) rolled back the German Army - taking more ground and more prisoners than their MUCH LARGER American ally with their great equipment and good rations.

Those Canadian men who died 1914-1918 did not live to have the sons of their own to go to war in 1939. And the ones who did return in 1918 -- many had lost the desire or instinct to reproduce -- my moms two brothers and dad being examples dear to my heart.

Sys .. don't talk baseball-stats-WW2-history to me cause it doesn't mean a thing. Percentage of population (volunteer) participation and % GDP are the only honest measures and if you'd stop and think for a moment you realize I am right.

But keep cranking buddy ... I got the clutch depressed and the spark retarded

MM
Toronto

Very well put. Respect.
If you don't understand WW1 you don't have any clue for WW2.

 

[syscom3]

Canada's role in WW2 was the Atlantic. Not the Pacific, so dont even try to offer proof of a token and ill advised defense of HK in 1941 as being proof they served everywhere.

Canada's production? The US certainly used your country to increase the efficiency of production. But by 1944, the US had so much capacity, it dwarfed yours. By madnitudes. And even Britains industrial production was far above yours.

But it was only Australia that fought both the best the axis could offer. They were the true heavy hitters of the small countries that really did make a difference in victory or not.


And by the way, WW1 was two decades before the second world war. Its quite irrelevent what Canada did in the first war.

 

[zoul310]

WW1 was the cemetery for many countries and many of them never recovered from these losses as explained by MM (this is valid for France as well).
I cherish what the US did but :
For many years the only reference for people living in occupied europe were these : The BBC and the RAF. Churchill voice and the sight or the noise at night (my mom remembers vividly) of the RAF were their only sights of hope.
Inside these planes all countries were represented, poles, french, dutch, canadian, australian, NZ, belgium, Czhec, americans and I forget many.
UK was the receptacle for hope and that should never be forgotten.

Contribution of a country cannot be reduced to an operational theater. When men give their life they all contribute equally in the tomb. Atlantic war was fundamental.

And don't forget that the deal between Roosevelt, Churchill and Staline was : Germany first.
Pacific became a secondary theater in effect.

 

[BombTaxi]

Further proof that you have no idea what you are on about sys. What Canada did in WW1 is massively relevant - like France, the UK, Germany and Italy, but unlike the US, Canada had most a generation killed or wounded during the Great War. These countries also suffered huge political and industrial upheaval as a result of the conflict, which materially affected their ability to contribute to WW2, and their very reasons for becoming involved in it. In fact, WW2 could not have happened without WW1 - and that includes much of the Pacific war too. That much is elementary European history.

Personally, I believe the Canadians did have an impact on the final victory - they sent divisions to the ETO, built and manned thousands of bombers, and assisted in keeping the North Atlantic lifeline open. How you can dismiss any of these actions as trivial is truly beyond me. Maybe you should read up a bit more on the contribution of the Commonwealth armies before you go running them down.

And what is it with you and belittlling countries that fought hard? Your arrogance really is awful. You seem to think that the US made the only worthwhile contribution to the war, yet by your own logic the US contribution is miniscule when placed next to the massive losses and huge industrial activity of the USSR. Or are you going to deny that as well and say the Russians only won because of Lend-Lease?

 

[zoul310]

The problem with that kind of post is that you put ranks. Now you are going to tell me that I don't like americans and don't appreciate their efforts.

I do. Let me tell you I do.