Need help identifying my uncle’s WWII plane

[Wurger]

... When did the Free French started using the yellow outline for the roundel? ...

According to my notes, this yellow outline inspired by that of the Royal Air Force, appeared with the instruction no. 60.462/DTI released in 1944 and allowing to use the French colours for the roundels and fin flash. However the yellow outline might appear in 1943 as well. Generally the French roundel with the yellow outline was introduced in 1945.

The French Spitfires Mk.Vs , Corsica, the April 1944.

and another one ...

the source: The Free French Spitfires : fighting for freedom

And a P-40 ...

the source: the net.

Hurricane of the Fighter School , Meknes in Maroc, 1946

the source: Meknès - Ecole de chasse "Christian Martell"

 

[Frog]

Given how pristine the Wellington paint looks the photograph could be at a rear area location.

Vickers Wellington in French service

ww2aircraft.net

Wellington X LP706 taken on charge 21 June 1944, is listed as MAAF 8 August 1944, and sold to FAF 12 July (year unreadable). Looking at nearby serials, all Wellington X, LP650 FAF 21 June 1945, LP653 FAF 28 June 1945, LB684 FFAF 30 June 1946, LB686 FAF 29 August 1946, LP750 FAF 29 August 1946, LP758 FAF 5 July 1945, LP784 FAF 5 July 1945

344 Squadron formed Dakar 29 November 1943, ex Flotille 1E used Wellington XI and XIII until transfered to French control 27 November 1945. Essentially it was the sister squadron of 344, ex Flotille 7E with Sunderlands, same dates and locations.

U-403 has several causes of loss depending on reference, 200 Squadron records a U-boat attack on 17 August 1943, the submarine was spotted at 0920 hours. Uboat net has it sunk on 18 August by HZ697 of 344 squadron after an unsuccessful attack by 200 squadron earlier that day. Kenneth Wynn says attacked by a 200 squadron aircraft on the 16th, then sunk on the 17th by 200 and 697 (Free French) squadron.

Mark XIII HZ697 was taken on charge 11 June 1943, to North Africa in 1943 (serials around it say they transferred late August/early September) It is listed as going to the French Air Force, along with HZ696, HZ704 and HZ770.

Are you sure ?
there never was a Free French 697 squadron. They were all in the 32x or 34x range.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

there never was a Free French 697 squadron. They were all in the 32x or 34x range.

There was never an RAF 697 squadron full stop. To put it all together Paul Kemp in U-boats Destroyed, U-403 sunk on 17 August 1943 by aircraft O of 200 squadron and aircraft HZ of 697 (Free French) squadron. HZ697. Interesting how references work.

 

[CATCH 22]

According to my notes, this yellow outline inspired by that of the Royal Air Force, appeared with the instruction no. 60.462/DTI released in 1944 and allowing to use the French colours for the roundels and fin flash. However the yellow outline might appear in 1943 as well. Generally the French roundel with the yellow outline was introduced in 1945.

Thanks, Wojtek! I'm trying to establish a time frame for the photo and I think it's from a later period (1944), not before or around "Torch". I do believe there were no Vichy-Forces at the time of the photo anymore (after November 1942) and the Free French were part of the Allied Forces. The "Wellington" we see in the photo was under RAF command (No. 344 squadron as mentioned earlier), which brings the time after November 1943, probably to 1944.

 

[Wurger]

I agree. I had been trying to fine the time frame as well. The pic could be taken either in 1943 or 1944. However my first thought was that it could be the even 1945 soon before the war end. But the 1943-1944 is more likely.

 

[CATCH 22]

I agree. I had been trying to fine the time frame as well. The pic could be taken either in 1943 or 1944. However my first thought was that it could be the even 1945 soon before the war end. But the 1943-1944 is more likely.

IMHO 1945 is too late for such an old B-25, unless the a/c was a hack or a "Fat cat" or a transport for some high ranking guy.
Since yesterday I'm playing with this thought: missing nose armament, overpainted older names, LACK OF ANY MISSION MARKINGS. The crew of 5 is too big for a transport though - they would need 2 pilots and a radio man in the best case. This is the reason to ask what was the function of the uncle.
Cheers!

 

[Frog]

IMHO 1945 is too late for such an old B-25, unless the a/c was a hack or a "Fat cat" or a transport for some high ranking guy.
Since yesterday I'm playing with this thought: missing nose armament, overpainted older names, LACK OF ANY MISSION MARKINGS. The crew of 5 is too big for a transport though - they would need 2 pilots and a radio man in the best case. This is the reason to ask what was the function of the uncle.
Cheers!

Second crew member from left wears a B-15 flight jacket made of a fabric called End-Zone twill.
If memory serves me well, this model was adopted around april 1944.
So the garment could at best have been issued by may / june 44.

 

[CATCH 22]

Different graphic, but a Google search of: B-25 Mitchell "double trouble" shows results as follows:

Serviceman and B-25 bomber "Double Trouble", 1942-45 | The Digital Collections of the National WWII Museum : Oral Histories

www.ww2online.org

The a/c with the same name behind that link is a B-25H from the 12-th BG., 82nd BS. Unfortunately I don't have any s/n for reference, but this photo was made after the 12-th BG. left the MTO and moved to CBI. I've been checking the collection of Lloyd Anthony "Frenchie" Rogers from the 12th BG. through the years - there are some amazing photos, both from the MTO and CBI.
Here's another "Double Trouble" from the 488th BS., 340th BG. after a collision with another a/c. As I mentioned before the name was not unique:

Cheers!

 

[Admiral Beez]

As I mentioned before the name was not unique:

I guess these planes were all keeping abreast of the same subject matter.

 

[CATCH 22]

Second crew member from left wears a B-15 flight jacket made of a fabric called End-Zone twill.
If memory serves me well, this model was adopted around april 1944.
So the garment could at best have been issued by may / june 44.

And don't you get the impression that these guys are not dressed for North Africa? Non of them has "pinkies"! The picture (if taken in the MTO) is easier to be placed in Italy, Corsica or France, rather than on the opposite side of the sea. During the second half of 1944, these are the places one will find Mitchells.

 

[CATCH 22]

I guess these planes were all keeping abreast of the same subject matter.

I agree. My remark was for the author of the thread, starting with the name of the a/c only, and (probably) expecting to find its identity easier.

 

[special ed]

I guess these planes were all keeping abreast of the same subject matter.

I see what you did there.

 

[Wurger]

IMHO 1945 is too late for such an old B-25, unless the a/c was a hack or a "Fat cat" or a transport for some high ranking guy.
Since yesterday I'm playing with this thought: missing nose armament, overpainted older names, LACK OF ANY MISSION MARKINGS. The crew of 5 is too big for a transport though - they would need 2 pilots and a radio man in the best case. This is the reason to ask what was the function of the uncle.
Cheers!

A good point.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

Hello I'm new to this site. My uncle is pictured with this plane during WWII and I'm trying to find out more about "Double Trouble"View attachment 690589

This looks to me to be a B-25C or B-25D. It is definitely one of the early models as can be seen by the lack of a turret just behind the cockpit as seen on later models. There isn't enough detail such as from the engine exhausts or tail skid to tell any more from this photograph. The cockpit glazing might give an indication of the specific model, but I am not that knowledgeable.

 

[Escuadrilla Azul]

The lack of MGs and ASV aerials for the Wellington could hint a training plane or a hack? Camo didn't fit well for maritime patrol.

 

[J4F-2]

Hello I'm new to this site. My uncle is pictured with this plane during WWII and I'm trying to find out more about "Double Trouble"

View attachment 690589

I took your photo and ran it through Photoshop and Irfanview to clean it up and restore it. I think if you look VERY closely you can see just the tip of one of the radar antennas on the Wellington just above the change in colors above the trailing edge of the wing. I think the airplane was on a trans-oceanic transfer from Brazil to Dakar then on to ??? Whether they were just flying it to there for pick up or taking it on further I have no idea. Brazil to Dakar was a common So. Atlantic transfer route. That's the best idea I have for it.

 

[Hornet133]

Unfortunately I can not help with identifying the airframe but I do have more images of 'Double Trouble'. From the attached we can see that it had a number of colour schemes over time (or maybe there was more than one airframe involved). It is clearly a C/D version (ignore the fact I have called it a D, that was just for identification purposes, it could be either).
I agree that by this time it is likely being used a transport or 'hack'. No I have no further details as to personnel etc.

 

[nuuumannn]

The lack of MGs and ASV aerials for the Wellington could hint a training plane or a hack? Camo didn't fit well for maritime patrol.

As I mentioned earlier, probably a delivery flight since it appears in relatively good nick? Although the other pic that I and Wojtek posted is in the same configuration without armament, so it could have been used for transport duties. Not likely that it would have been dispatched without radar aerials fitted, most likely was never fitted to that aircraft, it's probably not a Coastal Command example.

 

[vikingBerserker]

First pic in post #57, it looks like the aircraft number on the tail is on a stripped black background

 

[CATCH 22]

Unfortunately I can not help with identifying the airframe but I do have more images of 'Double Trouble'. From the attached we can see that it had a number of colour schemes over time (or maybe there was more than one airframe involved). It is clearly a C/D version (ignore the fact I have called it a D, that was just for identification purposes, it could be either).
I agree that by this time it is likely being used a transport or 'hack'. No I have no further details as to personnel etc.

Great photos, Hornet! Where did you get them?
This is definitely a hack (or a transport for somebody). It's the same a/c in all photos, even after the paint was stripped down. The patch over the gun-port on the left nose-side remains and the single external thermometer tube under the glazing is the same. B-25C/D bombers had 2 of them - one goes to a gauge in the cockpit and the second to a bombardiers gauge. This a/c didn't have a bombardier obviously. See both photos compared below.
I believe this is a C and not a D - in the third photo in post # 57 (showing the nose from the right side) one can see the demarcation line between the OD and NG camo - it has larger "scallops", characteristic for the Inglewood production. The Kansas city plant produced the Ds with denser ones.
I already mentioned in post #33 why this plane could be a B-25C-1/D-1. Now, when the engines are visible we see the Clayton S-stacks, characteristic for later C/D models. It is quite possible the engines have been changed at some point or this might be a newer B-25C-15 and the patch in the nose glazing had maybe a different purpose?
Another interesting point is that on the nose, over the gun-plate there is a dark rhombus with a number:

I really don't know what this is, but if you check the initial photo, you'll see that there is a white plate with the same form there. Probably with a number again:

I haven't seen a similar a/c-identification in the MTO. The serial number on a darker background (tail) is strange as well. It reminds me in a way of the MATS.
Cheers!