Need help identifying my uncle’s WWII plane
- Thread starter litlbobalu
- Start date
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buffnut453
1st Lieutenant
Ahhh...good spot, although the size and ratio still don't look "right" for either a French or RAF Wellybag.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
I've had a closer look at the pic and, although the Wellington could be Greek, there appears to be an outer "ring" to the roundel, appearing dark in the photo. It looks like a filter or perhaps ortho film may have been used when the photo was taken, so this outer "ring" may very well be yellow.
This could signify RAF, but, although the contrast of the other colours in the roundel don't allow positive I.D. look at the fin flash.
The forward stripe appears lighter, and the aft stripe darker, which leads to me to believe it is French, with the "French Blue" stripe forward. RAF fin flashes had the red stripe forward.
This could signify RAF, but, although the contrast of the other colours in the roundel don't allow positive I.D. look at the fin flash.
The forward stripe appears lighter, and the aft stripe darker, which leads to me to believe it is French, with the "French Blue" stripe forward. RAF fin flashes had the red stripe forward.
I agree with you my friend. The roundel size and the proportions for each colour of the marking indicate the L'armee de l'air. Also the "white J" looks like the French marking rather than the RAF one.
Here the French roundel in the same shape applied on the French P-47s
the source: Armee de´l Air after the WWII: Colonial Conflicts
Here the French roundel in the same shape applied on the French P-47s
the source: Armee de´l Air after the WWII: Colonial Conflicts
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
There were joint operations in the Caribbean by Allied air forces during the war.
Aside from the U.S., British, Free French and Central/South American nations were involved.
The photo may have been taken in the Caribbean at some point.
Aside from the U.S., British, Free French and Central/South American nations were involved.
The photo may have been taken in the Caribbean at some point.
Admiral Beez
1st Lieutenant
Different graphic, but a Google search of: B-25 Mitchell "double trouble" shows results as follows:
- Thread starter
- #27
litlbobalu
Recruit
- 6
- Oct 13, 2022
From the military history I’ve read I thought the B-25 Mitchell was flown mainly in the Pacific Theater and Australia. Was that because of it’s long range capability and the rugged island runways?
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
It was also used in the MTO, operating from North Africa and Italy, as well as the CBI theatre.
Although the USAAF didn't operate the B-25 in the bomber role in the ETO, the RAF (including Dutch and French squadrons) operated the Mitchell, from the UK, and later from bases on the Continent, in Europe.
Although the USAAF didn't operate the B-25 in the bomber role in the ETO, the RAF (including Dutch and French squadrons) operated the Mitchell, from the UK, and later from bases on the Continent, in Europe.
Airframes
Benevolens Magister
Good info.
I wasn't aware that the USAAF were operating B-25's in Senegal though, although, of course, this might have been a "stop over" visit, or the photo taken elsewhere.
I wasn't aware that the USAAF were operating B-25's in Senegal though, although, of course, this might have been a "stop over" visit, or the photo taken elsewhere.
Crimea_River
Marshal
I think Yves
CATCH 22
might be able to tell us more.
CATCH 22
might be able to tell us more.
Regarding the Wellington, I think it's a Mk.X and it is unarmed, the turrets have no guns in them, so it might have been ferried at the time of the photo. It has Rotol props and spinners, which were not normally fitted to the broadly similar Mk.IIIs in RAF service. The large J marking is unusual as I don't recall seeing anything like that in that position on a British Wellington, but it does appear to be French, if I was to hazard a guess. Here's a link to a picture that might assist:
from this forum:
from this forum:
L'aviation militaire de 1945 à nos jours
McDonnell Douglas F-4E-42-MC Phantom c/n 3845 #69-0303, modifié en F-4G, vu ici à MCAS Miramar en 1992 avec le 190th FS Idaho ANG. Stocké à ...
www.crash-aerien.news
Dakar was one of the stops on the Southern route for delivery of US-planes to North Africa - see map.
If the photo was made in Dakar, the 6-th AF has nothing to do with it. Maybe Litlbobalu's uncle was with the 6-th firstly, but then was sent to Africa?
The "Mitchell" on the photo is an early B-25C-1/D-1, having at the same time:
1. opening for the 0.30 gun on the left side of the bombardier's compartment (patched over)
2. blister scanning windows + astrodome for the navigator
It has a standard Olive Drab camouflage which wasn't common for the early B-25 sent over the Southern Route, but let say it could be a replacement. On the other hand the 2 B-25 groups sent to Africa, using this route (12-th and 340-th) flew from Ascension Island to Accra and later to Cairo (on the east side), not over Dakar AFAIR. So this a/c is with a great probability not part of the main echelons of these 2 groups.
The a/c on the photo shows some mods, and partial paint work - see the darker rectangles under the pilot's and bombardier's window. These are the areas where the names of the pilot, crew chief, bombardier etc. were written. Those were probably overpainted. The propeller dome shouldn't be n/m but painted, unless the paint has been stripped down. With other words this a/c is not a "fresh delivery" for the theater. I have the slight feeling that this could be a liaison or a reconnaissance one. The 2 officers with service caps look too old for a pilot/co-pilot to me.
When did the Free French started using the yellow outline for the roundel? When did they get "Whimpies" - before or after "Torch"?
"Double Trouble" was a very common name for a B-25 (twin-engine, twin-tail a/c) but also for any other type. I don't have a direct connection with the MTO at the moment .
Litlbobalu, do you know what was your uncle's position: radio-gunner, engineer, crew chief? The NO's could take different positions after being sent to the theater of operations, not what they have trained for previously.
I'll search for more.
Cheers!
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
As an observation, didn't the Vichy French keep the traditional roundel and the FAFL use the cross of Lorraine as their insignia?
Generally speaking, yes, but given the picture I posted a link to, I'd say that was a Free French Wellington, I suspect the Vichy French did not have Wellingtons. Bearing in mind the Wellington's British, so it might have been delivered with markings painted differently to standard French ones.
Squadron 344 (or Flotille 2FB) operated XI and XIII.
Its Wellingtons were initially received at Port-Lyautey (Morocco).
It was credited with the sinking of U-403 on august 1943.
And as General Recce (ASW) aircraft they were in Coastal Command camouflage with white undersides and the “stickleback” aerials of ASV.II on the aft fuselage.
vikingBerserker
Lieutenant General
I never knew that, thanks!
Geoffrey Sinclair
Senior Airman
- 453
- Sep 30, 2021
Given how pristine the Wellington paint looks the photograph could be at a rear area location.
ww2aircraft.net
Wellington X LP706 taken on charge 21 June 1944, is listed as MAAF 8 August 1944, and sold to FAF 12 July (year unreadable). Looking at nearby serials, all Wellington X, LP650 FAF 21 June 1945, LP653 FAF 28 June 1945, LB684 FFAF 30 June 1946, LB686 FAF 29 August 1946, LP750 FAF 29 August 1946, LP758 FAF 5 July 1945, LP784 FAF 5 July 1945
344 Squadron formed Dakar 29 November 1943, ex Flotille 1E used Wellington XI and XIII until transfered to French control 27 November 1945. Essentially it was the sister squadron of 344, ex Flotille 7E with Sunderlands, same dates and locations.
U-403 has several causes of loss depending on reference, 200 Squadron records a U-boat attack on 17 August 1943, the submarine was spotted at 0920 hours. Uboat net has it sunk on 18 August by HZ697 of 344 squadron after an unsuccessful attack by 200 squadron earlier that day. Kenneth Wynn says attacked by a 200 squadron aircraft on the 16th, then sunk on the 17th by 200 and 697 (Free French) squadron.
Mark XIII HZ697 was taken on charge 11 June 1943, to North Africa in 1943 (serials around it say they transferred late August/early September) It is listed as going to the French Air Force, along with HZ696, HZ704 and HZ770.
Vickers Wellington in French service
ww2aircraft.net
Wellington X LP706 taken on charge 21 June 1944, is listed as MAAF 8 August 1944, and sold to FAF 12 July (year unreadable). Looking at nearby serials, all Wellington X, LP650 FAF 21 June 1945, LP653 FAF 28 June 1945, LB684 FFAF 30 June 1946, LB686 FAF 29 August 1946, LP750 FAF 29 August 1946, LP758 FAF 5 July 1945, LP784 FAF 5 July 1945
344 Squadron formed Dakar 29 November 1943, ex Flotille 1E used Wellington XI and XIII until transfered to French control 27 November 1945. Essentially it was the sister squadron of 344, ex Flotille 7E with Sunderlands, same dates and locations.
U-403 has several causes of loss depending on reference, 200 Squadron records a U-boat attack on 17 August 1943, the submarine was spotted at 0920 hours. Uboat net has it sunk on 18 August by HZ697 of 344 squadron after an unsuccessful attack by 200 squadron earlier that day. Kenneth Wynn says attacked by a 200 squadron aircraft on the 16th, then sunk on the 17th by 200 and 697 (Free French) squadron.
Mark XIII HZ697 was taken on charge 11 June 1943, to North Africa in 1943 (serials around it say they transferred late August/early September) It is listed as going to the French Air Force, along with HZ696, HZ704 and HZ770.
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