Negative G Dive

Discussion in 'Flight Test Data' started by beaupower32, Nov 16, 2008.

  1. beaupower32

    beaupower32 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,840
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Lancaster, California
    I have been reading some about Erich Hartmann and he refers to the Negative G Dive. He says this either helps him get out of the way or to force a overshoot. Here is a transcript of him using the manuver.

    "Once I was in a duel with a Red Banner flown Yak-9, and this guy was good, and absolutely insane. He tried and tried to get in behind me, and every time he went to open fire I would jerk out of the way of his rounds. Then he pulled up and rolled, and we approached each other head on, firing, with no hits either way. This happened two times. Finally I rolled into a negative G dive, out of his line of sight, and rolled out to chase him at full throttle. I came in from below in a shallow climb and flamed him. The pilot bailed out and was later captured. I met and spoke with this man, a captain, who was a likeable guy. We gave him some food and allowed him to roam the base after having his word that he would not escape. He was happy to be alive, but he was very confused, since his superiors told him that Soviet pilots would be shot immediately upon capture. This guy had just had one of the best meals of the war and had made new friends. I like to think that people like that went back home and told their countrymen the truth about us, not the propaganda that erupted after the war, although there were some terrible things that happened, no doubt."

    I have looked on the internet and cant find anything describing how to do this manuver or pictures describing it. Can anyone help me out in maybe showing me how this is done. Thank you!
     
  2. mad_max

    mad_max Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2006
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    You just push the stick forward until your neg. g. and keep it there momentary. Then now since he's under enemy..just roll to him and pull the
    trigger. He probably was under his enemy's airframe and the enemy couldn't
    see him (slight climb tells you this) roll back to him in time to avoid the shot.

    IMHO
     
  3. Airframes

    Airframes Benevolens Magister

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    47,719
    Likes Received:
    1,421
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    As far as I know, the negative G dive described, was similar to the manouver carried out by Spits and Hurricanes, due to carb-fed engines, during the BoB.
    It entails doing a half roll into a dive, then reversing, or continuing, at the appropriate time, in order to get 'right way up'. In Hartmann's case, it sounds like he used the speed of the dive to 'zoom climb' onto his opponent. The beginning of the manouvre is similar to the beginning of the 'split S' evasive tactic, much favoured by, and I think taught to, Luftwaffe fighter pilots. The description by 'Max also fits.
     
  4. beaupower32

    beaupower32 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,840
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Lancaster, California
    cool, thanks guys. that help clear it up alot for me.
     
  5. HoHun

    HoHun Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2006
    Messages:
    1,766
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Hi Beaupower,

    >I have been reading some about Erich Hartmann and he refers to the Negative G Dive. He says this either helps him get out of the way or to force a overshoot. Here is a transcript of him using the manuver.

    I think the incident he describes is probably the same one also narrated in Toliver/Constable's "Holt Hartmann vom Himmel" (I only have the German edition). If I remember the book correctly, the negative G aspect is described there as rolling into a turn, but then pushing on the stick instead of pulling into the turn.

    As the attacker will try to follow the anticipated hard turn, we will roll and pull, too - if the defender pushes instead, their paths will diverge, and the attacker will lose sight of the defender because his nose gets in the way.

    If attacker continues his turn anyway, thinking that he's just making a lead turn with the defender continuing his turn too, the defender is free to fly himself into a position where he becomes the attacker.

    If the attacker notices the divergence, the defender will at least have spoiled a gun attack and improved his situation a little, perhaps enough to start another manoeuvre like scissors ... but I think Hartmann's Soviet adversary simply lost sight completely and then tried to race back to his lines, neglecting to check six so that Hartmann could shoot him down without further manoeuvering.

    Regards,

    Henning (HoHun)
     
  6. beaupower32

    beaupower32 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,840
    Likes Received:
    41
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Lancaster, California
    A little bit better explination there HoHun. Thank you for clairfying that up for me. I play some combat flight simulators and will try the manuver to see if they work out.
     
  7. timshatz

    timshatz Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2006
    Messages:
    4,441
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    MGR
    Location:
    Phila, Pa
    One other point, negative Gs are a pain in the head (not the ass) to do. Litterally. For two reasons. One, all the blood rushes to your head (hence the red out). You can take more positive Gs than negative Gs, just something about the way the body is made. So, you can pull 7 Gs (positive) and still be in the game but 7 Negative Gs will probably cause a hemorage and kill you. I think the max is something like 3 or 4 Negative.

    Further, Negative G is very uncomfortable. Most people avoid Negative Gs and especially increasing variety. Probably why most people don't do outside loops but inside loops are no big deal. Aircraft are also built with a higher positive G rating than a negative G rating.

    Lastly, and this is just personal experience, even if you've strapped yourself into the cockpit really tight, figuring you are probably going negative, you invariable bounce your head off the top of the canopy. No big deal if you're wearing a helmet but a royal bitch if you're just wearing headphones. It hurts in an annoying way.
     
  8. renrich

    renrich Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2007
    Messages:
    4,542
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    real estate
    Location:
    Montrose, Colorado
    I believe that the negative G dive is what the jet jockeys call "unloading" the AC. It takes all the Gs off the AC and makes it easier to maneuver.
     
  9. Soren

    Soren Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    6,624
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    According to what is said I believe the maneuvering continued, Hartmann forcing the Soviet pilot to overshoot and climb away, Hartman reversing and giving chase, climbing to get a shot.
     
  10. Glider

    Glider Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2005
    Messages:
    6,160
    Likes Received:
    128
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Consellor
    Location:
    Lincolnshire
    I don't know if this is the case. A negative G dive just puts additional forces on the aircraft in the other direction, one that is both painfull for the pilot and stressing the aircraft in other directions.
    You unload the aircraft by putting the stick forward but not I would suggest by puttig it in a negative G dive.
     
  11. kool kitty89

    kool kitty89 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2007
    Messages:
    3,069
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Unloading would be in "zero G" configuration, with the pilot effectively being weightles, pushing foreward harder will result in negative G.
     
  12. timshatz

    timshatz Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2006
    Messages:
    4,441
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    MGR
    Location:
    Phila, Pa
    Right about the unloading part. It's a case of taking G's, negative or positive, off the airframe.
     
Loading...

Share This Page