New project Bf 109 w.nr.8567

Discussion in 'Aircraft Requests' started by le_steph40, Sep 9, 2012.

  1. le_steph40

    le_steph40 Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    My new project is a Bf 109F-4/Z trop. (w.nr. 8567) flown by W. Schroer during summer 1942. But I need some confirmation regardind this aircraft. I think the modifications are:
    - Larger propeller (Bf 109G model, VDM 9-11207A not VDM 9-12010A)
    - Deeper oil cooler (Bf 109G-2/4 model)
    But, normally, with the installation of GM 1 boost, I think the octane marking under the cockpit is C-3 and not 87. Am I right ?

    Did the H. J. Marseille aircraft, w.nr. 8673 is in the same configuration ?

    TIA, best regards
    Stéph.
     
  2. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    Might have something on this Steph...will have to check....
     
  3. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Marseille's 8693? From memory,I've built this one more than once,

    Standard 9-12010 propeller

    G style deeper oil cooler.

    Not sure about Schroer,like Wayne I'll have a look.

    Steve
     
  4. le_steph40

    le_steph40 Well-Known Member

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    Hello Steve,

    w.nr. 8693 was flown during February 1942, the one that I talk about, w.nr. 8673, was flown during September 1942 (the last F-4 flown by H. J. Marseille)

    Thank you both for your future help... :)
     
  5. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Aaah,sorry,dodgy old memory!

    What makes you believe that Marseille's 8673 was an F-4/Z? It is generally considered a standard F-4/Trop.

    Use of GM-1 did not require C3 fuel. All F-4/Zs would have had the deeper oil cooler (presumably the Fo870 of the early Gustavs) but not automatically the wider blades. You'll need a decent picture to be sure which blades were fitted.

    Steve
     
  6. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    #6 Wayne Little, Sep 11, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2012
    W.Nr. 8673 is an F-4/Trop an Erla Built machine produced in Nov 1941, at some time it was repainted in the non-standard tropical scheme and possible updates performed before issue to JG27.
    Narrow prop blades were used along with deeper oil cooler there are photo’s that confirm this although the two I have shows only the prop blades.
    Same blades are used on Gerhard Homuth’s Yellow 1 W.Nr 8580, so it is most likely Schroer's Black 1 was similarly equiped.

    James H kitchens and John R Beaman quote in there booklet on Marseille that no F-4Z were issued to JG27 only F-4/Trop.

    While i don't have a pic confirming it Black 1 also had non-standard fuselage crosses.

    What actual info do you have on Schroers aircraft Steph?

    You depicting it with 32 or 41 victories...I do have a shot of the tail showing the 41...:D

    There are pics in messerschmitt Bf109 im Einsatz bei der III und IV/JG27 by Prien, Rodieke and Stemmer, unfortunately I don't have it....:(
     
  7. le_steph40

    le_steph40 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the informations, very helpfull :)
    The infos I have regarding this aircraft are a picture and she was flown during september 1942 by W. Schroer, Staffelkapitan 8./JG27.
    Unusual fuselage cross with wide sections and 32 victory bars on the rudder.
    IMG_1385.JPG
    IMG_1387.JPG
    I don't know the picture with 41 victory bars... Is the same aircraft ?
     
  8. AARP Hurricane

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    #8 AARP Hurricane, Sep 12, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2012
    Hi le_steph40

    I think the the unusual fuselage cross was the norm in JG27 and JG53.

    I have Priens book and the photo in the Kagero book is there also. No other signifcant photos, so the Kagero profile is sound other than the balkankreuz which should have a broader black element, however I wonder if the rudder was red, there seems to me to be a tonal difference between that and the tail. Some individuals believe that Marseilles machine also had a red rudder so could this be true of Schroer's? Or is the rudder at a slightly different angle and therefore looks darker?? A red rudder would look very colourful however :twisted: I will scan and post up Prien's page with photos later for you.

    Cheers

    Chris
     
  9. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    I think not. There may be a slight deflection in the rudder but a more important factor in slight tonal differences might be that the rudder is fabric covered,not metal.

    There are several photographs which show The rudder on Marseille's 8693,he wasn't exactly camera shy. Sometime in February 1942 it was entirely painted in a colour much darker in B+W photos than the camouflage colour. This normally taken to be a red primer. The best photos of it are the well known propaganda series taken on 21st February as the 49th and 50th abschuss markings are applied.

    Cheers

    Steve
     
  10. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't look like any tonal difference to me either, however there is a difference from the 32 to 41 victory application, they are set closer together and higher on the rudder for the 41, this rudder if it is the same one DOES have a difference which might suggest the darker coloured rudder...
     
  11. le_steph40

    le_steph40 Well-Known Member

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    Hello,
    Thank you all for your explanations. So, my model will be built this way:
    - Standard propeller 9-12010A
    - Deeper oil cooler
    - 87 octane indice
    - I think to install the armored windshield
    But, another question: RLM04 lower cowl or RLM78 ?

    Cheers
    Stéph
     
  12. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    Mmmm...that's a tough one.....some did, some did not....coin toss time..!
     
  13. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    I think I'd do a yellow lower cowl on a balance of probabilities,but as Wayne said it's a coin toss. White band behind the spinner and maybe white wing tips. Tricky without a photo.

    Steve
     
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