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500 was the number at the fall of France, an almost equal number of Spitfires and Hurricanes, it changed quickly as pilots returned and planes were produced. It is from that base that your numbers are produced, the Hurricane massively out produced the Spitfire to the point that Park used one as a runabout, the issues were pilots and pilot expertise and the number of Spitfires. As far as I read, not being a pilot the Hurricane was less prone to side slip and had its guns all together, many said the same of the Typhoon. I would never argue that the Hurricane was the equal of the Spitfire, I would argue that 750 or 1000 Hurricanes are superior to 500 Spitfires, especially since in the BoB the vast majority of kills were made by people unseen by the victim. In a fur ball or mass fight losses on both sides were comparatively low, the Spitfire being best for inexperienced pilots.Basically the RAF had 31-33 Squadrons with Hurricanes in the BoB (some were nowhere near London and Channel) and 19 Squadrons of Spitfires (again some were nowhere near London and the Channel). You had a few other odds and sods types of "fighters" scattered about.
Calling it 31 squadrons of Hurricanes and 19 of Spitfires means that Hurricanes made up 62% of the force (not counting the odds and sods) so one would expect them to cause 60-62% of the German losses due to fighters if the Hurricane was equal to the Spitfire. If it is 33 squadrons then they should have done a bit better.
Most accounts (many of the online accounts are dubious and don't even compare the correct models of aircraft) say the Hurricane shot down about 55% of the German losses due to fighters? Losses of Hurricanes are slightly higher at 63.7% but that is really too close to call.
Please note that most accounts claim the Hurricane was a better gun platform, although the reasoning leaves one scratching their head a bit. Not saying it wasn't, just questioning the reason/s given in some of the accounts.
The 500 aircraft (Hurricanes and Spitfires) sounds a bit low although it could have been true at some point in 1940 (May or June?) or a number of the squadrons were under strength?
No, because it did what it was supposed to, even shooting down Ju86 intruders at 44,000 ft. Supermarine didn't produce stressed skin fighter planes before the Spitfire, they made things like the Walrus. Included in the story of producing Spitfire wings you should also include the requirement for heating guns. The elliptical design was an elegant solution to the issue of getting the undercarriage and armament into the wings of a stressed skin monoplane design with circa 660 BHP available for take off. It is basically the same reason the Bf 109 had its quirky landing gear arrangement/geometry.Has anyone considered that the RAF may have been worse off due to the spitfire? One of the advantages of the spitfire supposedly came from Mitchell's or Vickers Supermarine willingness to use compound curves. Yet this complicated manufacturing because the metal had to be beaten into shape by a craftsmen or latter stretch formed over a die.
A simple trapezoidal platform wing of the same area and a little more twist would have been about as good and much easier to build.
Its clear other forms coukd do this. The defiant may be ill conceived turret fighter but it is well built and clean built.
500 was the number at the fall of France, an almost equal number of Spitfires and Hurricanes, it changed quickly as pilots returned and planes were produced. It is from that base that your numbers are produced, the Hurricane massively out produced the Spitfire to the point that Park used one as a runabout, the issues were pilots and pilot expertise and the number of Spitfires. As far as I read, not being a pilot the Hurricane was less prone to side slip and had its guns all together, many said the same of the Typhoon. I would never argue that the Hurricane was the equal of the Spitfire, I would argue that 750 or 1000 Hurricanes are superior to 500 Spitfires, especially since in the BoB the vast majority of kills were made by people unseen by the victim. In a fur ball or mass fight losses on both sides were comparatively low, the Spitfire being best for inexperienced pilots.
No, because it did what it was supposed to, even shooting down Ju86 intruders at 44,000 ft. Supermarine didn't produce stressed skin fighter planes before the Spitfire, they made things like the Walrus. Included in the story of producing Spitfire wings you should also include the requirement for heating guns. The elliptical design was an elegant solution to the issue of getting the undercarriage and armament into the wings of a stressed skin monoplane design with circa 660 BHP available for take off. It is basically the same reason the Bf 109 had its quirky landing gear arrangement/geometry.
Later marks had more internal fuel. Wouldn't that be easier than this mockup?
Spitfire MK II with long range tank, not really a success. But had long range bf 109s showed up in numbers they would not have had things all their own way.
Of course there are many solutions but the ones you quoted don't have 660HP available at take off, or carry the cooling system and armament including 20mm cannon in the wing itself. For much of the war short range was OK, immediately after D-Day the RAF and USAAF moved aircraft to France, and after the fall of France the USAAF moved escort squadrons there. The Eastern front never demanded long range. No doubt the Spitfire could have done with more internal fuel but it was designed as an interceptor and had to win an order with a fixed pitch prop.There are other ways around the undercarriage issue. The Fw 190, P-47(semi elliptical), Hellcat, P51, A6M all solved them. Twin spars or the highly trapezoidal platforms of Russian aircraft, two section taper of the defiant, inward retraction . If you need an uninterrupted main spar, inward folding etc. The BoB shouldn't be decided by an air battle between a single Ju 86R and Spitfire IX in August 1942 two years latter. The ceiling seems 99% a function of weight, wing loading and Merlin 61 engine.
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Spitfire MK II with long range tank, not really a success. But had long range bf 109s showed up in numbers they would not have had things all their own way.
Later marks had more internal fuel. Wouldn't that be easier than this mockup?
I know you were not being serious, just replied to your not serious post.I was not being serious.
Don't turn this thread into another P-39 fantasy thread.
Why do this instead of a conformal drop tank? This just seems the more obvious solution.
Spitfire MK II with long range tank, not really a success. But had long range bf 109s showed up in numbers they would not have had things all their own way.
Looks almost French.Why do this instead of a conformal drop tank? This just seems the more obvious solution.
I think there is also an optical strobe type effect. If you are flying straight and level you see eight lines of tracer converging to a point. But not all bullets are tracer, if you are turning and rolling trying to keep a deflection shot on target, the guns are constantly changing position and direction and since you only see a fraction of the bullets it looks like being sprayed from a pepper pot. There a short gun cam clip, often inserted in documentaries showing this.What they had and what they planned to have was two different things, Castle Bromwich taking longer than expected to get into production.
The Hurricane may very well have been steadier, and not only less prone to sideslip but less prone to other deviations to the desired path, a result of not being quite a sensitive on the controls. I am not a pilot so just putting that out there.
Many web sites/articles claim the dispersed guns on the Spitfire didn't hit to the same place due to the wing flexing, This on an airplane that had one of the fastest diving speeds of any fighter in WW II without the wings falling off. Seems more than a bit strange.
Anthony Williams book "Flying Guns World War II" has the expected patterns for a Spitfire with a 350yd cross over centered on an HE 111 from 6 oclock for both 75% and 100% patterns.
at 300yds the gun patterns for basically an over lapping sideways figure 8 with the 75% patterns being smaller in diameter than the fuselage. The patterns over lap by around 25%.
At 400yds the bullet paths have crossed over and you still get a sideways figure 8 only larger. 75% zones are now slightly larger than the diameter of the fuselage and the overlap is closer to 50% (depending on gun/s).
This is hardly the "all over the sky" described by some pilots. Of course with some pilots even in training opening fire at 900 yds or more bullets were certainly going all over the sky, but not due to any fault of the aircraft design (of either type).
Next page has a few deflection charts. If you are shooting at an He 111 that is doing 250mph and you are at 400 yds and 11 1/4 degrees off the tail you need to aim over the wing tip or just outboard of the wing tip in order to hit the fuselage over the wing roots. If a pilot is overcontrolling his plane it might seem like the bullets are going allover the sky?
Looks almost French.
British routine during the BoB was to load all one type of ammo in each gun, That is to say, one or two guns were loaded with AP, 3 guns might be loaded with ball, one gun (later two?) with loaded with incendiary (Dixon/DeWilde) one gun loaded with tracer. I have no idea which oneI think there is also an optical strobe type effect. If you are flying straight and level you see eight lines of tracer converging to a point. But not all bullets are tracer, if you are turning and rolling trying to keep a deflection shot on target, the guns are constantly changing position and direction and since you only see a fraction of the bullets it looks like being sprayed from a pepper pot. There a short gun cam clip, often inserted in documentaries showing this.