No Spitfire?

[pbehn]

Using American is no problem. Unless it's a P-38 or P-39...errr ok relying on America is a problem!

Asking the British aviation industry to build a 350mph fighter is not going to be an easy task if a speciation was sent in 1936 or 37. The Hawker fighters are due and 2,000bhp is the cheese. And even if there is new designs out there what stopping them been hot garbage anyways.

So it's going to be Hurricanes all the way. With P-40 to bulk the numbers. Is this a bad thing? In some theatres that would be plenty. UK is no longer under threat of invasion after Barbarossa so Sopwith Camels would be enough.

The Hawker fighters will eventually appear and the USAAC will bring the thunder so no Spitfire is not fatal.

Not saying chasing Me 109F in a Hurricane is easy but it can be done.

Ah, but in my aquadome, my cats and I have a cunning plan for a very different Hawker fighter with different usage.

 

[Koopernic]

The original Griffon Spitfire, the IV/XX, was based on the Spitfire Mk III airframe.

The first 55 of the 100 production Spitfire XIIs were based on the Spitfire Mk V, complete with fixed tail wheel and lacking the wing fuel tanks.

I agree, but the technology of it worked its way into the VII/VIII

Using American is no problem. Unless it's a P-38 or P-39...errr ok relying on America is a problem!

Asking the British aviation industry to build a 350mph fighter is not going to be an easy task if a speciation was sent in 1936 or 37. The Hawker fighters are due and 2,000bhp is the cheese. And even if there is new designs out there what stopping them been hot garbage anyways.

So it's going to be Hurricanes all the way. With P-40 to bulk the numbers. Is this a bad thing? In some theatres that would be plenty. UK is no longer under threat of invasion after Barbarossa so Sopwith Camels would be enough.

The Hawker fighters will eventually appear and the USAAC will bring the thunder so no Spitfire is not fatal.

Not saying chasing Me 109F in a Hurricane is easy but it can be done.

Perhaps the Hurricane can be fixed, with a new more fine wing (less thickness to chord ratio). The extra thickness did nothing except add drag. I doubt a wing 20% slimmer had a CLmax any worse.

Hawker Hurricane wing section is
Clark YH (19%) Clark YH (12.2%)

Hawker Typhoon
NACA 2219 NACA 2213
(last 2 digits indicate chord to thickness ratio)

I suppose given the follow on solution was merely an enlarged Hurricane renamed Typhoon but with a brutal Napier Sabre engine but the actually thicker wing technology that might be too much to expect?

Its worth noting the Spitfire wing root is 13% which is thinner than the typhoon wing tip.

if you put a NACA 2216 and NACA 2211 on the Super Hurricane it would be faster.

Curtiss P-40 Warhawk was
NACA 2215 NACA 2209

Spitfire was was
NACA 2213 NACA 2209 at the aileron hinge and 2206 at the wing tit.

 

[SaparotRob]

I agree, but the technology of t



Perhaps the Hurricane can be fixed, with a new more slender wing. The extra thickness did nothing except add drag. I doubt a wing 20% slimmer had a CLmax any worse.

Hit reply by accident.

 

[PAT303]

Mustang deal was signed before BoB, so the Mustang will be there.
You have the engine development story wrong, the Merlin 60 was designed for Wellington, not for Spitfire.

I know it was for the Wellington, but without the Spit it has no home so doesn't get made

 

[PAT303]

There were approx. 150 Mustang MkIs in UK at the end of December 1941, Merlin mustangs were arriving in mid 1943, their first job was advanced pilot training for the pilots who arrived with them.

Excellent, what the RAF really needs before the second half of 1943 arrives are P40's and P51's that are only good below 20,000ft and Hurricanes that are totally outclassed above it.

 

[The Basket]

Was there a Super Hurricane and whats the score with that if there was?

If you look at the French designs of the late 1930s shows what happens so the D.520 was still not a match for the Spitfire when it had a least 5 years on it.

The Spitfire was ahead of its time designed by a no compromises team whose goal was top speed and not ease of production. While the air ministry was still creating Defiants and Air Ministry specification F.5/34 which called for a single-seat eight-gun aircraft with the high maximum speed and rate of climb needed to catch 200 miles per hour (320 km/h) bombers flying at 15,000 feet (4,600 m). The air ministry spec created the Stuka Spitfire not the Type 300 Spitfire.

Remember the Italians and Japanese were still using fighters with 2 machine guns firing through the propeller arc like the Red Baron!

By Italian or Japanese or Soviet or even American standards Spitfire was years ahead. So the idea that there was a Spitifre-a-like around the corner is not true.

 

[tomo pauk]

I know it was for the Wellington, but without the Spit it has no home so doesn't get made

It has a home, it was made, and it was installed on Wellington VI bomber that was manufactured in 63 copies.

 

[The Basket]

Excellent, what the RAF really needs before the second half of 1943 arrives are P40's and P51's that are only good below 20,000ft and Hurricanes that are totally outclassed above it.

Better than nothing.

 

[wuzak]

Was there a Super Hurricane and whats the score with that if there was?

As a paper aeroplane, probably.

It was Rolls-Royce's Ernest Hives that first suggested putting the Merlin 60 into the Spitfire. If there wasn't a Spitfire, but the Hurricane was alive and well, I'm sure he'd have suggested putting the Merlin 60 into the Hurricane.

Camm probably even did a proposal for it.

Camm did do a proposal for a Griffon Hurricane, which miraculously was predicted to have better performance than the Griffon Spitfire proposal!

Note that the Griffon was redesigned early in its development specifically that it would fit in the Spitfire. Is that stage required for the Hurricane, and would that lead to earlier production of Griffon powered aircraft?

 

[fastmongrel]

Camm did do a proposal for a Griffon Hurricane, which miraculously was predicted to have better performance than the Griffon Spitfire proposal!

Camm seemed to have trouble with proposed speeds. Was his slide rule not properly calibrated or had he never heard of drag increasing with speed.

 

[PAT303]

Better than nothing.

You'd want to teach your pilots how to evade the bounce from above, they will be getting lots of them.

 

[Koopernic]

If Bolton and Paul is told to develop a single seat fighter rather than a 2 seat turret fighter I think it would have done an excellent job.
The Defiant was also in service 1 year before the Hurricane.

 

[The Basket]

You'd want to teach your pilots how to evade the bounce from above, they will be getting lots of them.

Yep.

Spitfire was bounced by 109 during battle of Britain so it's all good.

As long as you can shoot down the bombers that's all that matters.

 

[Shortround6]

The Defiant was also in service 1 year before the Hurricane.

News to the British.
First flight by Hurricane K5083 Nov 6th 1935.
First flight by Defiant K8310 Aug11th 1937.
Dec 1938 saw 10 squadrons with production Hurricanes, 5 squadrons were considered operational.
Dec 1939 saw the first production Defiants being issued to No 264 squadron. Not sure when it was fully equipped or declared operational.

 

[PAT303]

Yep.

Spitfire was bounced by 109 during battle of Britain so it's all good.

As long as you can shoot down the bombers that's all that matters.

Likewise plenty of 109's were bounced in return, how are you going to intercept bombers with P40's?, by the time they struggle to 20,000ft the bombers have flown half way back to France, even the Hurricane failed to catch them at times. No allied fighter could fill the Spits role until the first merlin engined Mustangs arrived.

 

[Shortround6]

Not saying chasing Me 109F in a Hurricane is easy but it can be done.

Hmmm, 340mph airplane (Hurricane II) chasing 380mph (minimum) airplane.

Hurricane better have plenty of Hight advantage.

 

[wuzak]

Likewise plenty of 109's were bounced in return, how are you going to intercept bombers with P40's?, by the time they struggle to 20,000ft the bombers have flown half way back to France, even the Hurricane failed to catch them at times. No allied fighter could fill the Spits role until the first merlin engined Mustangs arrived.

The P-40 could climb quite well. Better than the Hurricane I, at least to 15,000ft.

The P-40, however, did not have armour or self sealing fuel tanks.

The first of 200 was delivered in June of 1940.

The first Tomahawk I (French ordered H81As) arrived in Britain in September 1940.

P-40 variants weren't going to do Britain any good in the BoB.

 

[The Basket]

If the P-40 is the only fighter you got then that's what you get.

It ain't fair but then life ain't fair.

The Japanese were having to fight against 1945 western fighters in Zeros so if you don't like the rules then don't play the game.

 

[Koopernic]

News to the British.
First flight by Hurricane K5083 Nov 6th 1935.
First flight by Defiant K8310 Aug11th 1937.
Dec 1938 saw 10 squadrons with production Hurricanes, 5 squadrons were considered operational.
Dec 1939 saw the first production Defiants being issued to No 264 squadron. Not sure when it was fully equipped or declared operational.

The Defiant flew 1.25 years after Spitfire first flew and entered service 1.25 years after the Spitfire, slightly before the Battle of Britain. This proves that had the Spitfire not existed there was time to get another advanced fighter in service. It seemed to take 2.25 years to get from first flight to service.

Thanks, I misread Wikipedia and used the first flight date instead of the in service date.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Defiant flew 1.25 years after Spitfire first flew and entered service 1.25 years after the Spitfire, slightly before the Battle of Britain. This proves that had the Spitfire not existed there was time to get another advanced fighter in service. It seemed to take 2.25 years to get from first flight to service.

What kind of metrics ensures us that Defiant was an advanced fighter for 1940?