No Spitfire?

[Shortround6]

I am not suggesting that the Defiant sans turret could be modified into a competitive single seat fighter. I'm saying that applying the same level of technology, engine and know how would have allowed Bolton and Paul to design a clean sheet fighter (with no Defiant legacy) that was better than Hurricane and about as good as Spitfire.

Not based on the technology they displayed on the Defiant. As noted above, wrong wing section and a not very good radiator and oil cooler installation.

Beating the Hurricane might not be hard. Picking up 50mph to match a MK I Spitfire is going to be very hard indeed.

Some of the wartime propaganda about the defiant was a bit much.

 

[pbehn]

Hurricane IIs vs 109Fs?
It is a question of usage, Park would have killed fewer RAF pilots in Hurricanes than Leigh Mallory did with Spitfires.

True but then there were very few Fw 190s in 1941/early 1942. and then we are back to the Hurricane II vs 109F and Hurricane IIs trying to fight Fw 190s until the Typhoons show up.
Not a pretty picture.
There were very few LW forces comparatively in 1941 early 1942. The way the RAF conducted operations was ideal for the LW, the only thing they would have to defend were their own airfields which should have been the only place to attack, in numbers for hours, so they cant land there.


This is way off. The machinery/jigs/fixtures needed to equip the factory are not sitting in crates waiting to be shipped, they need to be built.

A few US examples.
Brewster (who was used to working in metal) got named associate contractor for the F4U on Nov 1st 1941, Goodyear was named 2nd associate in Dec 1941.
Goodyear completes first FG-1 in March of 1941, two in April and 7 in May. Brewster takes until April 1943 to complete their first F3A-1, it and another are accepted by the Navy in June, 3 are accepted in July but none are accepted in August.
For the P-47 in Jan 1942 1045 "D"s are ordered from the planned Evansville Indiana plant and 354 "G"s are ordered from Curtiss at the Buffalo NY plant. By Dec 31s 1942 Evansville has built 10 aircraft and Curtiss has built six. Curtiss had built over 3800 P-40s in 1942. Curtiss was certainly used to working with metal aircraft even if their hearts weren't into building Republic aircraft.

The jigs machinery and fixtures needed to be put in place at N/A too. Castle Bromwich produced Spitfires and also some Lancasters, Yeadon produced 4,500 Ansons and 700 Lancasters. It could have been done, in my opinion.

 

[Shortround6]

Castle Bromwich produced Spitfires

But with no Spitfires what is Castle Bromwich tooled up to make?
change overs take time,

N.A. only tooled up a certain amount,
Production of the Mustang for the first year was

1941
Aug.........2
Sept........6
Oct.........25
Nov.......37
Dec........68
1942
Jan.........84
Feb........84
Mar.......52
April.....86
May......84
June.....84
July......76
Aug.....24

large scale production requires more resources.

To have numbers (hundreds) of aircraft available in 1941 is going to require making a decision on the airframe before 1940.
The US had 3 possible contenders. The Hawk 75/P-36/P-40, The Seversky P-35/P-43 and the Brewster Buffalo. (F4F isn't finalized until late 1939 or early 1940)

 

[Koopernic]

Not based on the technology they displayed on the Defiant. As noted above, wrong wing section and a not very good radiator and oil cooler installation.

View attachment 617080

Beating the Hurricane might not be hard. Picking up 50mph to match a MK I Spitfire is going to be very hard indeed.
View attachment 617081

Some of the wartime propaganda about the defiant was a bit much.
View attachment 617082

The incomplete guide to air foil usage gives the following wings section:
Boulton Paul P.82 Defiant NACA M-6 mod NACA M-6 mod.
I put my ruler on the computer screen and measured just under 11mm thickness with 57mm chord giving a t/c ratio of 19% so about the same as Hurricane and Typhoon (20%).
Presumably a modification of NACA 2219.

The cowling of the Defiant looks neat and the metal work looks precise and smooth and the fuselage has a nice fine ratio.

I'm not sure all of the Hurricanes limited top speed can be blamed on the wing's high t/c ratio. The fuselage looks like it has has a relatively high frontal area "A" so the Cd.A is likely not good either whereas the defiant looks precise with a lower frontal area. The wing section is Clark-Y, probably not the best section for high speed given the flat bottom section and high top curve.

With thick wings you have plenty of room in the wings for fuel and the cockpit is further forward thus providing opportunities to thin the fuselage.

 

[Stig1207]

In 1940 Hurricane can hold the line so Sea Lion doesn't happen.
1941 is when Germans face east and that's that. No more threat of invasion.
In other theatres of war it's P-40s and Hurricanes all round. So Hurricanes were facing Fs and Gs anyway.

In my view the Spitfire is historically important but the Hurricane is historically vital.

Hurricanes MkI's were not coping with Me109E's over Malta or NA in 1941, nor were MKII's doing at all well in 1942 against F's and G's.

 

[PAT303]

In my view the Spitfire is historically important but the Hurricane is historically vital.

Name one area of operations where the Hurricane won, you can't because there isn't one, in every theater Hurricanes P40's did nothing more than hold the line with resulting devastating losses, the balance wasn't tipped and air superiority gained until Spitfires arrived. The Spitfire was vitally important, the fact that the interim models accounted for so much of it's production run, not to mention having old airframes re-engined to make new models proves beyond question just how desperate the RAF was to have them over brand new obsolete Hurricanes.

 

[PAT303]

Then what was the average speed of a Defiant II? Worse than the 313mph listed for them?

If the average speed of the Hurricane was 340mph that means many of them did well over that, I don't think your getting a Hurri to 350+.

 

[PAT303]

Hurricanes MkI's were not coping with Me109E's over Malta or NA in 1941, nor were MKII's doing at all well in 1942 against F's and G's.

Hurricanes and P40's were cannon fodder in Africa.

 

[PAT303]

When the loss is supposed to happen, and why?

If all the RAF has is Hurricanes they cannot go on the offensive anywhere, FW190's and F series 109's cross into English airspace from France at will, the desert air force is butchered, same in the Mediterranean, Britain is effectively neutered.

 

[Koopernic]

If the average speed of the Hurricane was 340mph that means many of them did well over that, I don't think your getting a Hurri to 350+.

The world would be a better place if a long time ago it were made illegal to calculate and then quote an average without also quoting a norm and a standard deviation. Its been far more harmful than offensive language or triggering someone over a social justice language issue.

 

[PAT303]

The world would be a better place if a long time ago it were made illegal to calculate and then quote an average without also quoting a norm and a standard deviation. Its been far more harmful than offensive language or triggering someone over a social justice language issue.

British speeds are calculated by testing five in squadron aircraft and working out the average of the said five aircraft, if the Hurri could do 340mph that means some would be above that speed, some below giving the 340 mph figure, individual aircraft could do that speed but not all, against the 109F which is what this part of the discussion was about the F has a minimum of 40+ mph speed advantage over the Hurri at worst.

 

[tomo pauk]

If all the RAF has is Hurricanes they cannot go on the offensive anywhere, FW190's and F series 109's cross into English airspace from France at will, the desert air force is butchered, same in the Mediterranean, Britain is effectively neutered.

Germany don't have wherewithal to defeat UK in 1940, and they have Soviet Union in the crosshairs from late 1940 on, with invasion a bit later. US actively comes in by late 1942 against Germany and Italy.
So the questions of how and when Britain looses still remain.

 

[The Basket]

The thread is Spitfire don't exist.
So the query is what do you do.
More Hurricane is the only stop gap until you can get the Hawker fighters or American fighters in full production.

So saying the Hurricane is outclassed well that's the point. But again No Spitfire or Spitfire alternative is the path you're going down.

But the Hurricane is not outclassed in 1940 and by 1941 it's very much so. But if there is no alternative then the issue is what is the alternative?

 

[The Basket]

Russian fighter pilot goes up to Mr Stalin in Summer 1941 and advises him that them Polikarpov fighters are no good Guv'vnor.

After a trip a trip to the gulag and shot several times he still has to fly the I-16 anyway. Why? Isn't the I-16 markedly inferior to every German fighter? So why are the Soviets flying inferior fighters? It is a noodle scratcher.

 

[PAT303]

So the questions of how and when Britain looses still remain.

Well being stuck on an island with no where to go with enemy aircraft controlling your airspace is about as close to loosing as you can get. If the RAF only had Hurricanes I would do what the 2 TAF did to the Luftwaffe a few years later when the Spit XIV became available, I'd have FW190's circling fighter fields waiting to bounce the Hurri's as they came up to fight, the few that did get airborne would pose no threat to either the 190 or 109.

 

[PAT303]

The thread is Spitfire don't exist.
So the query is what do you do.
More Hurricane is the only stop gap until you can get the Hawker fighters or American fighters in full production.

So saying the Hurricane is outclassed well that's the point. But again No Spitfire or Spitfire alternative is the path you're going down.

But the Hurricane is not outclassed in 1940 and by 1941 it's very much so. But if there is no alternative then the issue is what is the alternative?

There isn't one, simple as that, in a straight up fight no British fighter could handle the 109 other than the Spit, when the 190 arrived even it was made obsolete until the MkIX came into service, if a better fighter could be made it would have but they weren't. Martin Baker had some good designs but none entered service

 

[PAT303]

So why are the Soviets flying inferior fighters?

To help make Luftwaffe pilots the highest scoring airmen in human history of course, other than that nothing

 

[Shortround6]

If the average speed of the Hurricane was 340mph that means many of them did well over that, I don't think your getting a Hurri to 350+.

The 340mph is for a MK IIa with eight guns. The MK IIb was bit slower and the IIc with 20mm guns was a bit slower still.
very few times were tops speeds ever an average. Often there were goal or marker, not phrasing this right. In the US (and even in overseas contracts) there was a tolerance but it was usually plus nothing and minus 2-3% depending on contract before the plane had to either reworked or a penalty paid (actually customer did not pay full price for the plane).

The ONLY time I have heard (and there certainly good be other times) of an average speed being mentioned is the famous case of the average speed of a repaired Hurricane I being 305mph in the BoB.
Pilots accounts vary but then pilots are looking at their airspeed indicators, not test instruments and very few pilots were "correcting" their airspeed indicator readings to standard temperature and pressure and taking into account the correction factor for pitot tube location and compressibility (pitot tube readings tend to be lower at high speed).
Planes are also tested (usually) in new condition and not with dents and paint peeling off.

compare like to like, don't compare Hurricane in service for several months using it's own airspeed indicator to new (ish) plane at a test center with 'corrected" results.

 

[Koopernic]

There isn't one, simple as that, in a straight up fight no British fighter could handle the 109 other than the Spit, when the 190 arrived even it was made obsolete until the MkIX came into service, if a better fighter could be made it would have but they weren't. Martin Baker had some good designs but none entered service

Google maps has "measure distance" function. Select a location such as Calais, right click and you can drag a dynamic line which measures distance. One night, with a glass of wine by your side, you might enjoy exploring how deep past the UK coast an Me 109 might. I count the Me 109 range getting to about 10% of Britain's land area without drop tank and 20% with. Bombers past that point would be intercepted by Hurricanes unhindered by Me 109. Fw 190 had slightly more range but not much.

For some Bizarre reason the Luftwaffe didn't push to install wing tanks in the Fw 190 until it was too late to manufacture them but the ones designed added enormous range.

 

[fastmongrel]

Isn't it lucky that No11 Group was entirely equipped with Spitfires or the LW would have won.