Obscure 109's

[Njaco]

......we know of several units that operated the Bf.109H. ...

You might be thinking of the Bf 109T which was developed for the 'Graf Zeppelin' and were dispursed among units mostly JG 5.

The water ski version might have been for catapult from warships.

 

[stona]

You might be thinking of the Bf 109T which was developed for the 'Graf Zeppelin' .

Well we know how many Bf109Ts were supposed to be built or converted under various plans and have a pretty good idea of how many were actually produced!

Cheers
Steve

 

[Sagittario64]

I suppose youre more than likely right, stona. wwii records, while large and detailed, are still far from a complete or near complete database of wwii. and i guess the mysterious nature of the H would make it hard to distinguish between what was an H and what was a modded F model, like was suggested

 

[stona]

I'm quite suspicious of the early version of the H developed from the F series. There is little hard evidence for it entering production and it seems to appear mainly in books from the early seventies. It's surprising how often one writer latches on to something like this and it becomes self perpetuating. This is why I would suggest that there may have been some kind of F based prototype program involving the 2m wing extension and tailplane bracing,fitted with a DB 601 E. One of the references claims that an F based prototype was destroyed by bombing at Stuttgart-Echterdingen in August 1944 and I wonder if there is some confusion with the better documented development based on the G-6.

It is typical of Germany's shambolic production system that Messerschmitt had already passed a high altitude fighter,the Me155,to Bohm and Voss and had themselves started work on the Me209 (not the pre-war racer,this was the second time the designation was used) whose projected performance was almost identical to the Me155. When B+V finally flew the BV155 V-1 prototype intercompany feuding and a complete lack of cooperation from Messerschmitt meant that the design had moved,and would move further,away from the original concept.

Project P1091 "extreme high altitude fighter" started AFTER both these projects and is the one that led to the two G based prototypes.

Cheers
Steve

 

[GrauGeist]

As far as I know, there were three Bf109H aircraft built:
V1: WNr 16281/SP+EB
V54 : WNr 15708/PV+JB
V55 : WNr 15709/PV+JC

From the looks of the airframe (including bulges on the cowling) I would say it was a modified G series

One did see service with 5.(F)/123 (Recon Group) in Spring of 1944 from April until July.

Here's a couple pics of PV+JB

 

[stona]

V-1 is also known as V-49,it's another one that various people are a bit vague about. It has been ascribed three different werknummern by different authors (Radinger/schick,Novarra,etc) 16281,16291 and 1629. It was supposedly a DB 628 equipped,weaponless prototype,for the H, based on a G-3 or G-5.

I keep seeing references to an H-0 tested at Rechlin in 1943. This was based on a Bf 109 F-4/Z with a DB 601 E motor and GM-1 for increased altitude performance. Some even suggest a limited production of this version,with different armament,depending who you read.

The only certainty is that the H series did not enter production in any meaningful way. It was one of several high altitude interceptor projects that in the end didn't amount to much.

Cheers
Steve

 

[kettbo]

As far as I know, there were three Bf109H aircraft built:
V1: WNr 16281/SP+EB
V54 : WNr 15708/PV+JB
V55 : WNr 15709/PV+JC

From the looks of the airframe (including bulges on the cowling) I would say it was a modified G series

One did see service with 5.(F)/123 (Recon Group) in Spring of 1944 from April until July.

Here's a couple pics of PV+JB

View attachment 190012

View attachment 190013

"MODEL" of PV+JB?

 

[stona]

"MODEL" of PV+JB?

I think so. It should certainly have a swastika on the fin.
Steve

 

[Wurger]

Also think these shots of post #25 present a model of PV+JB. ALso the division for a fin and the rudder should have been better noticed.Generally these images look faked.

 

[Njaco]

Accordin to "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe" by Daid Donald, these were the planned versions of the 'H'....

Bf 109H-0 = Pre-production version
Bf 109H-1 with DB601E engine
Bf 109H-2 with Jumo 213E engine
Bf 109H-3 with Jumo 213E engine
Bf 109H-5 wth DB605L engine

 

[stona]

Accordin to "Warplanes of the Luftwaffe" by Daid Donald, these were the planned versions of the 'H'....

Bf 109H-0 = Pre-production version
Bf 109H-1 with DB601E engine
Bf 109H-2 with Jumo 213E engine
Bf 109H-3 with Jumo 213E engine
Bf 109H-5 wth DB605L engine

This was the series supposedly based on the F model. None of the Jumo or DB 605 versions ever existed. I'm still not convinced about the alleged limited production of a DB 601 powered version (as mentioned in my post above above). As I said I keep seeing people refer to them but with no evidence they were ever built.
If every paper project mooted by the RLM and various aircraft manufacturers had been built the Luftwaffe could probably have won the war on its own
Cheers
Steve

 

[Njaco]

The book I referenced did say the H-5 wasn't built. Only a few of the others and wing problems cancelled the whole affair.

 

[GrauGeist]

Hey guys, sorry if the images in post #25 were misleading everyone into thiking those were actual photos of PV+JB. Those B&W photos had been used in a book from the 70's that touched on some of the more obscure Bf109 variants.

I had posted them for viewing comparison

 

[kettbo]

No problem! Not trying to bust you out....

 

[stona]

Even if a model they give a good idea of what the prototype would have looked like.
When were they first published? Certainly by Smith and Kay in the early seventies,maybe even earlier(showing my age here!)
Cheers
Steve