Operation Rolling Thunder

swampyankee said:

The other accepted wisdom was that you couldn't get into the National Guard without a lot of pull.

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When the Dec 1 1969 first draft lottery came out, my number guaranteed I would be going, one way or another. I checked all the options and discovered, as swampyankee suggests, that all the guards, Army, Air, and Coast, had two and three year waiting lists, and even the USAF had a lengthy baglog in my recruiting district. After my mandatory, atypical, experience with Army ROTC, the Army option was a non-starter, even as an officer.
Shortly thereafter, my boss at GE Aircraft Armament Div came and offered me instant enlistment in the Army Guard company he commanded, bypassing the "official" recruiting process. He said his was one of two companies made up almost entirely of employees of GE and of Simmons, another defense contractor down the road. Apparently the enlisted personnel were hourly workers at the two companies, and the officers were their civilian supervisors and managers. He said even if the Guard were called up to active duty, their battalion would be held stateside.
After thinking a bit, I decided the Navy was a better option than becoming a lifer in the class conscious stratified society of GE/Army Guard. And glad I did!

tyrodtom said:

I met several troops who had committed some minor crime in civilian life and was given a choice by the judge, jail time or FTA. ( that's Fun, Travel, Adventure, what the Army recruitment posters guaranteed )

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My boot camp company had quite a few of those JTN&STW (Join the Navy and see the world) court ordered enlistments from the street gangs of Philadelphia. Almost equal numbers from two deathly rival gangs. Despite some early fisticuffs, and a knife fight, with one exception they eventually all turned into alright dudes and reliable shipmates. GMGC Narvesen supplied the father figure they needed. You didn't BS Chief Narvesen, but he would go the extra mile for you if he thought you needed it. Most of the "dudes" left boot camp with their GEDs in hand.
Cheers,
Wes

swampyankee said:

it wasn't so much "attention span" as antipathy.

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For the first three or four years of the "large scale" war the majority of Americans supported the war, actively or passively. After the Tet offensive of 1968, the opposition became more visible, vocal, and persuasive, and more and more of the people began to suspect they'd been sold a bill of goods.
The cost in materiel, personnel, and social stress of a drawn out war of attrition without geographic evidence of progress just doesn't set well with a culture enamored of the quick decisive conflict resolution of the wild west gunfight. I say again, except for a Civil War/WWII style existential crisis, Americans just aren't in it for the long haul. That's what I meant by attention span.
Cheers,
Wes

Shameless Hype Dept: just learned that Dragon's Jaw is being reprinted in its 2nd week; no info on ebook or audio book sales yet.

Anyway: one of the things we learned is that Big AF was essentially clueless about how to destroy an over-engineered, over-built bridge in 1965. Part of the problem was that star wearers required the troops (read: F-105 pilots) to use up the instantaneous fuses in stock before using more useful delay fuses. So ineffective dumb bombs combined with inadequate Bullpups (250-lb warhead) essentially scratched Thanh Hoa Bridge's paint while cratering the approaches. Which were easily repaired. I quote Robbie Risner, who led the first two strikes against the bridge. Got to know him somewhat in the aces assn. When shot down he said "Those AAA gunners had a better target in their sights than I did."

Barrett said:

Part of the problem was that star wearers required the troops (read: F-105 pilots) to use up the instantaneous fuses in stock before using more useful delay fuses.

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Why would they make such a stupid decision? You'd figure you'd use the correct weapon for the correct purpose...

Zipper730 said:

Why would they make such a stupid decision? You'd figure you'd use the correct weapon for the correct purpose...

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First, they'd have to understand what the correct weapon for the job is. After almost two full decades of doctrine dedicated to "big bang" nuclear warthink and regulated by bean counter logic, USAF could be expected to have a shortage of "star wearers" steeped in the minutae of tactical air warfare. Not stupid, just inadequately informed. And too proud to listen to those truly in the know.
Cheers,
Wes

Maybe not so much stupidity as a difference of opinion as how was the best way to drop a truss type bridge.
Take out the overhead truss with bombs with instantaneous fuses, or take out the bottom roadway portion with delay fuses.

Or maybe the bean counters knew what was in the munition storage areas, and used what they had.

Since the munitions storage areas were commonly called bomb dumps, it sort of gives the impression they were just big super markets loaded with explosives.
The weren't. You had store explosive in widely separated , revetted , storage areas. Separated with enough distance between so that if one storage point experienced a explosive event it wasn't passed to the next, and so on until you lost the whole storage area, along with maybe the whole base.

The temptation was always there to just store extra munitions in each area, or create new storage areas in the places between, but that can come back and bite you if the right combination of mishaps occur.

There were several small scale explosive events in the Vietnam era in USAF munitions areas, but none expanded to taking out the entire depot.

One in particular I remember happen at Takli, Thailand, in 1967.
A night crew possibly ( nobody knows for sure what happened because all 10 or 12 people in the immediate area died ) dropped a 750 lb bomb from a fork lift. It was unfused, but it was found out later the lot of bombs there at that time was a defective batch with a thin plastic liner that didn't completely cover the inside of the bomb. Which allowed the explosive filling to get into the fissures in the cast iron bomb case.
Though the entire batch ( about 100 ) of 750 lbs bombs in that one revetment went up. The explosion didn't pass to the other munition storage revetments. Even though parts of forklifts, trucks and trailers went about a mile.

You couldn't allow munitions to just accummilate, it had to be first in, first out, for the overall safety of the whole base.

And everything there had a long, torturous, journey just to get there.

If you had a mission that needed special bombs with special fuses, you had to plan it weeks in advance, Captain PeCard didn't just stick his hand in the air and say " make it so "

XBe02Drvr said:

First, they'd have to understand what the correct weapon for the job is. After almost two full decades of doctrine dedicated to "big bang" nuclear warthink and regulated by bean counter logic, USAF could be expected to have a shortage of "star wearers" steeped in the minutae of tactical air warfare.

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Ironic as many of those guys would have served in WWII and knew people who served in Korea.

Didn't time delay fuses exist in WWII times?

tyrodtom said:

Maybe not so much stupidity as a difference of opinion as how was the best way to drop a truss type bridge.
Take out the overhead truss with bombs with instantaneous fuses, or take out the bottom roadway portion with delay fuses.

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But wouldn't just blowing out the roadway portion be the most important thing?

Or maybe the bean counters knew what was in the munition storage areas, and used what they had.

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There were several small scale explosive events in the Vietnam era in USAF munitions areas, but none expanded to taking out the entire depot.

One in particular I remember happen at Takli, Thailand, in 1967.
A night crew possibly (nobody knows for sure what happened because all 10 or 12 people in the immediate area died) dropped a 750 lb bomb from a fork lift. It was unfused, but it was found out later the lot of bombs there at that time was a defective batch with a thin plastic liner that didn't completely cover the inside of the bomb. Which allowed the explosive filling to get into the fissures in the cast iron bomb case.

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And around 100 x 750's went up -- I'm amazed only 10-12 guys died. I would have expected much more, I guess those revetments were designed very well.

You couldn't allow munitions to just accummilate, it had to be first in, first out, for the overall safety of the whole base.

And everything there had a long, torturous, journey just to get there.

If you had a mission that needed special bombs with special fuses, you had to plan it weeks in advance

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How long did the planning take in WWII times?

What do you think the function is of the truss structure in a bridge? Looks ???
Cut the truss, the bridge falls.
Look at a picture of a truss type bridge, it's unlikely you could get a bomb thru all that structure without hitting it.
It you were using a delay bomb, the structure would only suffer collision damage, if it had a instant fuse, the structure would be cut.
Just a matter of opinion, which is most likely to bring it down.

They probably had several types of fuse availiable, Where ever I was based we did.
In my experience the account doesn't ring quite true, or doesn't give all the information.

As for the bomb dump explosion in Thailand going up only killing as many as it did, was more due to the fact that good munition storage areas are mostly open areas with lot's of room between working and storage areas. The revetments are just walls of dirt surrounding each site, they direct to force of the blast upward.
Plus the accident happened at night, when only a fraction of the personnel who worked there was present.
The Takli bomb dump probably had 50 or 60 storage sites, only one went up.

It's easy to criticize events of long ago when you have no real working knowledge of what went on.
Everything looks simple from a computer monitor.

Zipper730 said:

I guess those revetments were designed very well.

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Outside the fence at our base and across the main highway, there was an "old abandoned" WWII munitions storage compound with a rusty tumbledown chainlink fence and the bunkers obscured with foliage. We used to walk and drive past and sometimes through it to the old WWII sub pens to go skin diving.
Years later, after the cold war was over, I ran into one of the "ordies", an old drinking buddy, from EOD back in the day and learned that under all the apparent disuse and neglect, nuclear warheads for torpedoes and ASROCS had been stored there all those years. Who'd of thunk it? He said they went out to do status checks and maintenance in the wee hours of moonless nights, dressed in civvies and carrying fishing poles. He said fishing in the sub pens was particularly good at night, and you weren't likely to be interrupted by the Florida Marine Patrol. Can you imagine the zoomies doing anything that casual?
Cheers,
Wes

tyrodtom said:

What do you think the function is of the truss structure in a bridge?

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For some reason I was thinking of a suspension bridge, of which some have a lot of structural members below the bridge too.

Look at a picture of a truss type bridge, it's unlikely you could get a bomb thru all that structure without hitting it.

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So what was the objection?

As for the bomb dump explosion in Thailand going up only killing as many as it did, was more due to the fact that good munition storage areas are mostly open areas with lot's of room between working and storage areas. The revetments are just walls of dirt surrounding each site, they direct to force of the blast upward.

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Understood

Plus the accident happened at night, when only a fraction of the personnel who worked there was present.

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That is a big plus -- less people present means less can die.

Zipper730 said:

For some reason I was thinking of a suspension bridge

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This is some of the structure of the Paul Doumer (or Long Bien) bridge in Vietnam, known to American aviators as "the dragon's jaw". Does it look like a suspension bridge to you? Can you imagine dropping a bomb through that maze without setting it off?
OTOH, it is a cantilever bridge, not a Warren type linear truss, so I can easily see the aviators believing that a bomb that didn't explode until it reached or penetrated the roadway would have a greater chance of taking down the whole structure. As it was, they did succeed in dropping the center span but the two cantilever sections were untouched, so erecting a new center span was feasible, and did happen.
Cheers,
Wes

tyrodtom said:

Incineration, as in a nuke ?? Surely you're joking.
Probably all three if that had been done in 1965, that would have been seen as a giant escalation on our part.

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Im guessing both he and LeMay meant leveling Hanoi and any other concentrated targets in a more conventional manner, ala Tokyo or Dresden.

FLYBOYJ said:

Putting it bluntly, they were VERY dumb.

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Certainly this is true in the context of military afairs. However it occurs to me that it was hubris on the part of political descision makers more than intelligence or lack thereof that made things unnescesarily dificult for our military.
There is nothing more dangerous than a person generally intelligent or not, convinced of there own acumen but ignorant in the task at hand and either un aware of or unwilling to admit to themselves there need for counsel from those more knowledgeable than themselves in said task at hand.

XBe02Drvr said:

View attachment 539605
This is some of the structure of the Paul Doumer (or Long Bien) bridge in Vietnam, known to American aviators as "the dragon's jaw". Does it look like a suspension bridge to you? Can you imagine dropping a bomb through that maze without setting it off?
OTOH, it is a cantilever bridge, not a Warren type linear truss, so I can easily see the aviators believing that a bomb that didn't explode until it reached or penetrated the roadway would have a greater chance of taking down the whole structure. As it was, they did succeed in dropping the center span but the two cantilever sections were untouched, so erecting a new center span was feasible, and did happen.
Cheers,
Wes

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The Thanh Hoa bridge was know as the Dragons Jaw, not the Paul Doumer bridge.

The Thanh Hoa bridge was a warren truss bridge , wasn't finally dropped until 1972.
On the first attack of the Thanh Hoa bridge 1200 bombs and 32 Bullpup missiles were expended, but apparently only scorched the paint on the structure.
They even tried to bring it down by dropping mines upstream from C-130s, and blowing them up as they floated under it.
With only more scorched paint as the result.
It earned it's name as the Dragon's Jaw the hard way.

The Paul Doumer Bridge had a span dropped in it's first attack in 1967.
Repaired soon of course.

We didn't know it at the time but some of the conventional bridges were replaced by underwater bridges a few miles away, with camouflaged approaches, and only used at night.
But the conventional bridges still repaired and defended just to keep our attention on them, and cause us to lose aircraft trying to destroy them.

I notice the roll eyes emoji was used when I said maybe the bean counters knew what the storage areas had.

If you want to believe it or not, it's true.

While in the Army in Wildflecken, Germany, in 72, at first I was on limited duty because of injuries.
My duty was in the computer room. We were updating stock records daily on a IBM computer, and it's verifyer. The cards were sent to HQ in Frankfort daily by courier.

In Nkp Thailand the same task was performed daily by telex to HQ, I'm just not sure if that was in Asia or the US
They had pretty solid information on what and how much of everything we had.

XBe02Drvr said:

View attachment 539605
... Does it look like a suspension bridge to you? Can you imagine dropping a bomb through that maze without setting it off?

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It'd require amazing luck...

OTOH, it is a cantilever bridge, not a Warren type linear truss, so I can easily see the aviators believing that a bomb that didn't explode until it reached or penetrated the roadway would have a greater chance of taking down the whole structure.

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And they knew this back in 1965-1967? Also, were they sending fighter-bombers to hit the bridge up-stream (rather than down the span)?

As it was, they did succeed in dropping the center span but the two cantilever sections were untouched, so erecting a new center span was feasible, and did happen.

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Why not just 'sic a B-52 cell on it?

michael rauls said:

Im guessing both he and LeMay meant leveling Hanoi and any other concentrated targets in a more conventional manner, ala Tokyo or Dresden.

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Yeah, basically: Also we flattened a whole bunch of cities in Korea (supposedly both North and South).

However it occurs to me that it was hubris on the part of political descision makers more than intelligence or lack thereof that made things unnescesarily dificult for our military.

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I think it was a combination of paranoia against some of the military establishment (and trying to keep them in line, and remind them who was boss), as well as hubris.

I think one thing that finally got engraved on their brains was if you want to take a modern steel bridge down, you need to hit it with a BIG bomb.
Like 2000 lbs, and you need to hit it with a slight delay. It needs to penetrate the roadway, then explode just slightly beneath the roadway surface.

I think it was big bombs, early generation guided munitions that finally dropped the Thanh Hoa ( Dragons Jaw) in 72.

A B-52 cell might sound good, but the Big belly B-52s usual configuration was 500 lbs bombs in the bomb bay, and 750 lbs bombs on the wing racks.
A lot of bombs, but meant for tearing up jungle and light structures.

I'm sure the B-52 could be configured for 2000 lbs bombs too, but dropping them from their preferred altitude with the precision required is questionable.

tyrodtom said:

The Thanh Hoa bridge was know as the Dragons Jaw, not the Paul Doumer bridge.

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I stand corrected. Thanks TT.

Zipper730 said:

Why not just 'sic a B-52 cell on it?

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Up until the final push in 1972, B52s only flew over the south as the north's defenses were viewed as too formidable. This view was vindicated by the losses suffered in the Christmas raids on Hanoi and Haiphong in 1972.
Cheers,
Wes

tyrodtom said:

I think one thing that finally got engraved on their brains was if you want to take a modern steel bridge down, you need to hit it with a BIG bomb.

Like 2000 lbs, and you need to hit it with a slight delay. It needs to penetrate the roadway, then explode just slightly beneath the roadway surface.

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So the time delay was something learned with experience? The Grandslam and Tallboy didn't seem to employ any time delay and brought down the Bialefeld duct...