Didn't seem to employ a time delay ? In other words you don't know .
What delay you'd use with a 10,000 lbs bomb, or thereabouts, compared to a 2000 lbs bomb or less, is apples to oranges.
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So the time delay was something learned with experience? The Grandslam and Tallboy didn't seem to employ any time delay and brought down the Bialefeld duct...
It can't really be understood by anybody who wasn't there. I grew up in that generation, had a lot of the same training, and have read and read, and listened and listened for fifty years, but still can't really get my head around it. I've amassed a wealth of information, but without the context of being there, it doesn't qualify as knowledge. We are so fortunate to have have the likes of MikeW, Shortround, Tyrod, and Biff (I know, post VN, but valuable nonetheless) with us to provide the context that gives information the ring of truth.It can't be summed up in just some simple sentences like you seem to want.
Questions...I'm surprised you would even ask that question.
There was a video about the various things Westmoreland did wrong, and they mentioned that he didn't seem to really do all that good a job about training the ARVN so they could eventually take over our job. Supposedly he said he didn't really give a damn about them.It was hardly a secret that almost every weapon the ARVN had, from tanks , helicopters, aircraft, guns, munitions, right down to the helmets on their heads, came from us.
Did any General/Admiral in that period of time (1945-1968) realize that if you have a war where one side is in a fight for survival (North Vietnam) and the other can disengage at will (United States) without being destroyed, that the former will do everything they can to survive?
That's a good point, however, we were in a position where we could disengage at will.Sorry, but can not agree with this "survival" statement.
The only side in a fight for survival was the Republic of Vietnam (RV).
NVN knew we wasn't going to nuke them, we had too many allied countries, and some not at all allies, in the immediate area.That's a good point, however, we were in a position where we could disengage at will.
Once we started attacking NVN, they would pull out all the stops to protect themselves from us: We had greatly more firepower, and technically, could have turned them into an irradiated wasteland.
They certainly did employ a time delay, otherwise they would have exploded on impact which was not the way they were designed to work. They were not blast bombs depending on a pressure wave through the air to take out objectives. They were deep penetration bombs that were supposed to penetrate 60-100ft into the ground before going off and causing a small, local earth quake to shake the target structures down.So the time delay was something learned with experience? The Grandslam and Tallboy didn't seem to employ any time delay and brought down the Bialefeld duct...
I'm just saying we had the ability to do so.NVN knew we wasn't going to nuke them, we had too many allied countries, and some not at all allies, in the immediate area.
You're right, I'm surprised I forgot about that particular little detail...They certainly did employ a time delay, otherwise they would have exploded on impact which was not the way they were designed to work. They were not blast bombs depending on a pressure wave through the air to take out objectives. They were deep penetration bombs that were supposed to penetrate 60-100ft into the ground before going off and causing a small, local earth quake to shake the target structures down.
I'm just saying we had the ability to do so.
Regardless, the facts (as I grasp it) are
- We had greatly more firepower: Even if nuclear weapons were not employed, we could wiped out most major population centers, much as we had done in Korea, and in the latter half of WWII (1944-1945 in particular), in some ways, it would have likely been easier
- Experience: We've carried out these raids in WWII and Korea, so we knew what to do, and what didn't work.
- Bigger bombers:
- The B-52F could carry 25000 pounds prior to the 'big belly' mods, which brought up the internal load to 42000, and the pylons used for the AGM-28 could be modified to carry up to 9000 pounds of bombs a piece; even 25000 would eclipse the Avro Lancaster (they were hauling loads ranging from 6000-14000 pounds) and the B-29 (which carried around 16000 when stripped down for incendiary raids).
- Some fighters and attack aircraft had maximum loads that were substantial: The F-105 & A-6 had loads comparable to WWII heavies; the A-4 had loads that were comparable to medium-bombers.
- In Flight Refueling: You could fly farther by refueling in mid-air, and since you are starting at 25000 feet after refueling, it's like you just appeared up at altitude.
- Other: RB-66's can allow precise bombing by computing impact point, and then signaling F-105's to release ordinance; the A-6's could guide A-4's to their targets.
- We could disengage at will: While it would have been bad for South Vietnam, the United States would not have come under attack; in comparison: If the UK were to attempt to disengage from war with Germany in WWII -- they would have been wiped out.
BTW: I'm not sure if I asked this before, but would SAC's idea of having 30 x B-52's carry out a low altitude attack on Phuc-Yen, followed by infrastructural attacks on NVN, and eventually going into the PRC, and hammering t
flying along the coast, turning inwards at 500 MSL over Hanoi at night; then pop-up to 1500' shortly before reaching Phuc Yen and just laying an epic smackdown (30 x B-52's laying down 25000 pounds of bombs a plane); then attack on infrastructure in Vietnam; then finally going right into China and hammering their nuclear reactor (Lop Nor?) which was producing nukes, would have succeeded in quickly subduing Vietnam, and ending China's nuclear threat? Would it have gotten the USSR involved in support of China, or would Russia have been happy to see China subdued? Would the Chinese have sent the hordes over the border?
Yes, these actions do seem a bit nuts, but sometimes audacity has a way of stunning people into silence: Remember the battle of Little Round top? A bayonet charge actually succeeded in holding the line -- you'd have figured they'd have just shot them all figuring "those who live by the blade get shot by those who live by the gun", but it stunned everybody.
Well, Rolling Thunder started in early 1965 right? The planned attack on Phuc Yen was also around the same period.The facts as you grasp it, was when?
The attack on Phuc Yen would have been out of Guam (Anderson). B-52's were based out of Anderson and U-Tapao RTAFB.Where would these B-52's fly from?
That's actually a good question: How many bombs did we have before the war started (say mid/late-1938 to late-1941), and from that point, to 1945? How many did we expend versus produce and so forth?Just as it took years to build up the infrastructure to support the bombing of Germany and Japan.
I assume it was a euphemism for immolating the cities, and hitting the few oil-storage sites we could find.Bomb NVN's infrastructure?
Wasn't that General LeMay's biography?One threat was to bomb them (NVN ) back into the stone age.
Did they even have out-houses?I've never even flew over North Vietnam, but I have been on the ground in South Vietnam in the villages, and I'd think it wasn't all that different in NVN.
It's hard to explain to a person used to modern conveniences just how primitive these people lived
Of course, I was just trying to point out that, as part of Chrome Dome, there were plans to attack the USSR from the USA, as well as forward deployed locations (it would also bypass the issue of having to move the munitions from the US). That said, it'd be an exhausting flight.The longer range the mission, the more wear and tear on the aircraft, bombers, tankers and escorts. That was why closer to the target bases were used whenever possible.
So, it would have worked better had there been carried out in a more rational method (Don't stop for stupid reasons, particularly when it appears something is coming out of it in a useful fashion), and with continuity (keep hitting specified target systems until they're gone), with the only thing to stop you being shortages in ammunition or excessive losses, not silly political matters?Rolling Thunder may have started in 65, but very slowly.
That is something I did not know...Utapao didn't come online until 1967.
Actually, the first SAM was identified in 1965...Remember NVN got it's first Mig-17's in 1964, and SAM's in 1966?.
I would imagine, and yet the F-105's flew pretty good with 750's onboard. Some of them didn't appear to be the newest munitions...Rolling Thunder started out very slowly, not because of political reasons, but because that's all the logistics could support. It was a tremendous effort to locate, transport, and refurbish all those munitions stored worldwide, eft over from WW2 and the Korean war.
Really? I would have figured the bulk of it would be here, but OTOH, it does make sense that huge caches would be in Europe...Even a bombing campaign based from the USA, still would have taken great effort because a great deal of those supplies weren't located stateside.
I guess that's what I get for using Wikipedia as a sourceYou're a little off on your Korat AFB timeline, it never became operational for USAF fighters till the middle of 1965, when 8, that's 8, F-105s started operating from there.