Operation Torch Air Battle

[Schweik]

As promised, here are the stats on the naval-air battles between Anglo-American and Vichy air forces in Nov 1942. This is from Mediterrenean Air War Vol III, starting on page 33, with combat stats starting on page 65. I'm only going to list the actual losses on each side, but I'll list the aircraft types which made claims. "Losses" means FTR, MiA, shot down, or crash-landed in target area.

Nov 7 1942
British Victories: Seafire IIc, Albacore I, and Sea Hurricane IIb and IIc, and Wildcat IV made claims.
British Losess: 4 x Albacores, 2 x Hurricane IIb, 3 x Sea Hurricane, 2 x Seafire IIc shot down, + multiple damaged

USN Victories: Spitfire V made claims
USN Losses: 1 x Spitfire Vb, 9 x C-47 shot down (some of the C-47s crash landed)

French Claims: D.520 made claims
French Losses: 8 x D.520 shot down, 1 x Boston shot down

Nov 8 1942
British Victories: No British aircraft made claims
British Losses: 4 x Hudson II and V (2 apparently shot down by USN Wildcats friendly fire)

USN Victories: F4F-4 and SBD-3 made claims (from Massachusetts, Sangamon, Swanee, and Santee)
USN Losses: 13 x F4F-4, 3 x SBD, (three of the F4F lost actually landed at "Mazagan" and the crew were captured, one turned over during landing)
USN Mishaps: 2 x F4F ran out of gas and ditched, 1 x SBD accident, 3 x TBF accidents (all during takeoff)

French Claims: French Hawk75A and D.520 (mainly Hawk 75) made claims
French Losses: 8 x Hawk 75A, 1 x D.520 4 x Martin 167, 1 x Potez 63.11, 5 x D.520 "damaged but pilot safe"
French Mishaps: 1 x Hawk 75, 1 x D.520 lost in accidents

Nov 9 1942
British Victories: No British aircraft made claims
British Losses: 1 x Spitfire PR, 1 x Hudson

USN Victories: F4F-4 made claims (7 claims)
USN Losses: 3 x F4F-4, 2 x L-4 (one by friendly fire)
USN Mishaps: 2 x F4F-4 lost in accidents

French Claims: Gawk 75 made one claim
French Losses: 3 x Hawk 75, 1 x Db-7

Nov 10 1942
British: No claims or losses
USN Claims: One claim by an F4F one by a SBD-3 (of a DB-7)
US Losses: 4 x TBF, 6 x Spitfire VB
US Mishaps: 1 x Spitfire, 1 x P-40F crashed on landing

French Claims: No claims
French Losses: 2 x D.520, 1 x Potez 63 (all to flak)

All in all, Shores summarizes the losses on page 88 as:

25 French aircraft shot down + 13 damaged
46 US aircraft "lost to all causes" (25 x F4F-4, 9 x SBD-3, 10 x TBF-1, 1 X OS2U-3, 1 x SOC-1)
My breakdown of the USN planes actually shot down by the French is 16 x F4F, 3 x SBD, 4 x TBF, 1 x L4, 9 x C-47, for 33

On top of that you can add 7 x British fighters and 9 bombers, plus 2 more bombers lost to friendly fire
and 7 x USAAF Spitfires shot down (mostly by flak it seems)

So that's another 23. Total therefore is 25 French vs. 56 Anglo-American.

All in all I'd say the French gave a good accounting of themselves, despite being heavily outnumbered and probably at least somewhat ambivalent, and flying 1940 vintage aircraft many of which lacked self-sealing tanks etc.. They were obviously well trained pilots.

EDIT: References to USN claims and losses refer to both USAAF and USN claims and losses, obviously Spitfires and C-47s were not operating from USN Carriers, though the L-4s were. Also, "Desert Air Force" referenced in followup posts below referring to the 31st FG includes the other Allied commands in North Africa such as the "Western Desert Air Force", "Desert Air Task Force", 9th and 12th AF etc.

 

[pararaftanr2]

As promised, here are the stats on the naval-air battles between Anglo-American and Vichy air forces in Nov 1942. This is from Mediterrenean Air War Vol III, starting on page 33, with combat stats starting on page 65. I'm only going to list the actual losses on each side, but I'll list the aircraft types which made claims. "Losses" means FTR, MiA, shot down, or crash-landed in target area.

Nov 7 1942
British Victories: Seafire IIc, Albacore I, and Sea Hurricane IIb and IIc, and Wildcat IV made claims.
British Losess: 4 x Albacores, 2 x Hurricane IIb, 3 x Sea Hurricane, 2 x Seafire IIc shot down, + multiple damaged

USN Victories: Spitfire V made claims
USN Losses: 1 x Spitfire Vb, 9 x C-47 shot down (some of the C-47s crash landed)

French Claims: D.520 made claims
French Losses: 8 x D.520 shot down, 1 x Boston shot down

Nov 8 1942
British Victories: No British aircraft made claims
British Losses: 4 x Hudson II and V (2 apparently shot down by USN Wildcats friendly fire)

USN Victories: F4F-4 and SBD-3 made claims (from Massachusetts, Sangamon, Swanee, and Santee)
USN Losses: 13 x F4F-4, 3 x SBD, (three of the F4F lost actually landed at "Mazagan" and the crew were captured, one turned over during landing)
USN Mishaps: 2 x F4F ran out of gas and ditched, 1 x SBD accident, 3 x TBF accidents (all during takeoff)

French Claims: French Hawk75A and D.520 (mainly Hawk 75) made claims
French Losses: 8 x Hawk 75A, 1 x D.520 4 x Martin 167, 1 x Potez 63.11, 5 x D.520 "damaged but pilot safe"
French Mishaps: 1 x Hawk 75, 1 x D.520 lost in accidents

Nov 9 1942
British Victories: No British aircraft made claims
British Losses: 1 x Spitfire PR, 1 x Hudson

USN Victories: F4F-4 made claims (7 claims)
USN Losses: 3 x F4F-4, 2 x L-4 (one by friendly fire)
USN Mishaps: 2 x F4F-4 lost in accidents

French Claims: Gawk 75 made one claim
French Losses: 3 x Hawk 75, 1 x Db-7

Nov 10 1942
British: No claims or losses
USN Claims: One claim by an F4F one by a SBD-3 (of a DB-7)
US Losses: 4 x TBF, 6 x Spitfire VB
US Mishaps: 1 x Spitfire, 1 x P-40F crashed on landing

French Claims: No claims
French Losses: 2 x D.520, 1 x Potez 63 (all to flak)

All in all, Shores summarizes the losses on page 88 as:

25 French aircraft shot down + 13 damaged
46 US aircraft "lost to all causes" (25 x F4F-4, 9 x SBD-3, 10 x TBF-1, 1 X OS2U-3, 1 x SOC-1)
My breakdown of the USN planes actually shot down by the French is 16 x F4F, 3 x SBD, 4 x TBF, 1 x L4, 9 x C-47, for 33

On top of that you can add 7 x British fighters and 9 bombers, plus 2 more bombers lost to friendly fire
and 7 x USAAF Spitfires shot down (mostly by flak it seems)

So that's another 23. Total therefore is 25 French vs. 56 Anglo-American.

All in all I'd say the French gave a good accounting of themselves, despite being heavily outnumbered and probably at least somewhat ambivalent, and flying 1940 vintage aircraft many of which lacked self-sealing tanks etc.. They were obviously well trained pilots.

There seems to be some misinformation in those stats, either from the original source, or typos when copied? For example:

USN Victories: Spitfire V made claims
USN Losses: 1 x Spitfire Vb, 9 x C-47 shot down (some of the C-47s crash landed)

The USN did not fly either of those types in that operation.

USN Victories: F4F-4 and SBD-3 made claims (from Massachusetts, Sangamon, Swanee, and Santee)

"Massachusetts" was a battleship and did not operate the F4F-4 or SBD-3.

"My breakdown of the USN planes actually shot down by the French is 16 x F4F, 3 x SBD, 4 x TBF, 1 x L4, 9 x C-47, for 33"

Again, the USN did not fly the L4 or the C-47 during Operation Torch.

Can you please clarify? Thanks!

 

[Schweik]

I can't say I love the term 'misinformation' in relation to my post. Maybe you should double check your own sources before bandying such words.

I did make a typo when i wrote "USN Losses" I should have just written "US losses"

On the US Spitfires - they were from the 31st FG whith was a US Army unit already flying with the DAF / British which were involved, they arrived in NA in August 1942 and were apparently flown to a field in Algiers specifically for Torch.

All of what I posted by the way is in Mediterranean Air War Volume III as I noted, and I indicted the page numbers so you can check - the claims and losses begin on page 66, the details on the pages before that. I am confident that there is no misinformation in that book. Several other people in this forum also have the book and can easily confirm.

The L-4s were operating from the US carriers, there is a photo of one on the deck of USS Ranger on page 81. Apparently they were not recognized by the fleet and all of them suffered at least some AAA damage. The book says they were using them for artillery (and presumably, shore bombardment) spotting.

The C-47s were used to drop paratroopers, the book says they were with the 60th Troop Carrier Group. They get into this on page 59. Losses listed on page 66 were from the 10th and 12th squadrons of the 60th TCG.

The Massachusetts launched an OS2U-3 which was shot down, unit shown was V0-7. This is on page 76. The majority of the USN losses were from the Ranger and Santee.

 

[Schweik]

This is a photo I found online of one of the L-4s taking off from the Ranger at Torch

 

[special ed]

The book, "Vichy air force at war" by Sutherland & Canwell, notes the OS2U was directing fleet gunfire inland when it became the sixth kill of Lt. Pierre Villaceque, his first five being German. There is considerable F4F action in which they did well considering lack of combat experience. To find Torch tallies I will have to look through the text, as the included table gives all Vichy Air Force victory credits, including Syria and Indochina.

 

[Schweik]

Like I said, MAW III lists all the tallies, from the actual loss records of both sides not just unverified claims, so it's a pretty good source. I'm pretty confident in my numbers, though I may have made a mistake adding up the totals.

I wouldn't say the USN fighter pilots did badly, I wouldn't expect them to. Actually if you look at fighter vs. fighter it's about even or slightly in their favor. But both the French pilots and their D.520 and Hawk 75 aircraft also clearly performed very well, they were 1940 vintage and heavily outnumbered but still "in the game" in late 1942. And we know that both aircraft continued to be used fairly late into the war. Sadly for the French, I think they lost a lot more pilots KiA probably due to inadequate protection in their aircraft. Most of the Wildcat pilots that got shot down survived and were captured by French troops and later released, or pulled out of the sea by their comrades.

 

[special ed]

I found the book interesting because of giving the identities of those involved where possible. Most of the French had been active in combat in France yet they seemed to have difficulty with the Wildcats although the French had their own Wildcats and should have known the capabilities of them. For instance: "The American pilots found themselves up against determined Frenchmen, many of whom had already seen combat during the battle for France. The Americans on the other hand, were all untested though they were proficient pilots." Combat is described between Wildcats and Hawk 75s ,D.520s, Potez 63-11s and others. One account of a Wildcat pilot bailing out and being shot at by a Hawk 75 while in his chute and returning fire with his handgun. He survived as did the French pilot.

 

[pararaftanr2]

I can't say I love the term 'misinformation' in relation to my post. Maybe you should double check your own sources before bandying such words.

I did make a typo when i wrote "USN Losses" I should have just written "US losses"

On the US Spitfires - they were from the 31st FG whith was a US Army unit already flying with the DAF / British which were involved, they arrived in NA in August 1942 and were apparently flown to a field in Algiers specifically for Torch.

All of what I posted by the way is in Mediterranean Air War Volume III as I noted, and I indicted the page numbers so you can check - the claims and losses begin on page 66, the details on the pages before that. I am confident that there is no misinformation in that book. Several other people in this forum also have the book and can easily confirm.

The L-4s were operating from the US carriers, there is a photo of one on the deck of USS Ranger on page 81. Apparently they were not recognized by the fleet and all of them suffered at least some AAA damage. The book says they were using them for artillery (and presumably, shore bombardment) spotting.

The C-47s were used to drop paratroopers, the book says they were with the 60th Troop Carrier Group. They get into this on page 59. Losses listed on page 66 were from the 10th and 12th squadrons of the 60th TCG.

The Massachusetts launched an OS2U-3 which was shot down, unit shown was V0-7. This is on page 76. The majority of the USN losses were from the Ranger and Santee.

Sorry you took offense at my choice of words. Was not really questioning your source's accuracy and did speculate originally it could just be numerous typos on your part, thus the request for some clarification. Sometimes a little proof reading before posting goes a long way and avoids confusion, or "bandying", as you so nicely put it, on the part of the reader.
For some further insight on the topic, you may want to read "Wildcats Over Casablanca", a first person, wartime, account of a Wildcat squadron's encounters with the French during Operation Torch.

 

[Schweik]

I'm still a little confused. Did you read my reply? Everything I posted was correct, there were no typos. I believe my sources are good.

To be very clear, I think you should have checked YOUR sources before throwing words around and accusing people of making mistakes let alone misinformation. You were incorrect in your claim that no C-47s or L-4s were used in Torch.

 

[Schweik]

I don't mean to be rude mate, and I appreciate the recommendation on the book, I'm always interested in first hand accounts like that, but there seems to be some kind of disconnect here.

 

[Andrew Arthy]

I did make a typo when i wrote "USN Losses" I should have just written "US losses"

On the US Spitfires - they were from the 31st FG whith was a US Army unit already flying with the DAF / British which were involved, they arrived in NA in August 1942 and were apparently flown to a field in Algiers specifically for Torch.

Thanks for the interesting post. I have a couple of small corrections. The 31st FG arrived in North Africa on 8 November 1942, having flown from Gibraltar - they never flew with the DAF. They had arrived in England in June 1942 and flew some operations from there. They then sailed to Gibraltar in late-October and early November and picked up new Spitfires, before flying to Tafaraoui near Oran on 8 November 1942. Their claims against D.520s were made at 17:00 on 8 November 1942, rather than 7 November 1942 as you write.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

 

[Schweik]

Did they (31st) or did they not fight in Tunisia, Pantarelia etc.?

 

[pararaftanr2]

I'm still a little confused. Did you read my reply? Everything I posted was correct, there were no typos. I believe my sources are good.

To be very clear, I think you should have checked YOUR sources before throwing words around and accusing people of making mistakes let alone misinformation. You were incorrect in your claim that no C-47s or L-4s were used in Torch.

Let me respectfully try to point out what I was referring to in your post that I was questioning. I will quote you directly:

I'm still a little confused. Did you read my reply? Everything I posted was correct, there were no typos. I believe my sources are good.

To be very clear, I think you should have checked YOUR sources before throwing words around and accusing people of making mistakes let alone misinformation. You were incorrect in your claim that no C-47s or L-4s were used in Torch.

"Everything I posted was correct, there were no typos." Wow, really? I made no claims that C-47s or L-4s weren't used in Torch, but you did make several typos. I'll quote you directly using "copy and paste", so you can see for yourself, okay?
You said:
"USN Victories: Spitfire V made claims"
"USN Losses: 1 x Spitfire Vb, 9 x C-47 shot down (some of the C-47s crash landed) "
"USN Losses: 3 x F4F-4, 2 x L-4 (one by friendly fire)"
"My breakdown of the USN planes actually shot down by the French is 16 x F4F, 3 x SBD, 4 x TBF, 1 x L4, 9 x C-47, for 33"

Apparently, you meant to say "US"?, but you said "USN" four times. To me, that is "misinformation", as you are listing aircraft (Spitfires, C-47s, L-4s) operated by the USAAF as being operated by the US Navy. This can be confusing to say the least, as it is repeated four times in that post.

You also stated this:
"USN Victories: F4F-4 and SBD-3 made claims (from Massachusetts, Sangamon, Swanee, and Santee)"
You are including a battleship along with three escort carriers, as the ships that F4F-4 and SBD-3 aircraft flew from and made claims. I was pointing out that Massachusetts did not operate Wildcats, or Dauntless', only float planes, as it was not an aircraft carrier.

Again, sorry if you take offense at my comments. This will be my last post in this thread, as I don't come here to argue or be overly critical. Pretty clear now your mind will not be changed, so I respectfully bow out.

 

[Schweik]

Thanks for the interesting post. I have a couple of small corrections. The 31st FG arrived in North Africa on 8 November 1942, having flown from Gibraltar - they never flew with the DAF. They had arrived in England in June 1942 and flew some operations from there. They then sailed to Gibraltar in late-October and early November and picked up new Spitfires, before flying to Tafaraoui near Oran on 8 November 1942. Their claims against D.520s were made at 17:00 on 8 November 1942, rather than 7 November 1942 as you write.

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

Did they (31st) or did they not fight in Tunisia, Pantarelia etc.? Technically that was part of the 12th Air Force but it was all aprt of the DAF, effectively.

 

[Schweik]

Let me respectfully try to point out what I was referring to in your post that I was questioning. I will quote you directly:

And let me do the same sir. This is your post just above:

There seems to be some misinformation in those stats, either from the original source, or typos when copied? For example:

USN Victories: Spitfire V made claims
USN Losses: 1 x Spitfire Vb, 9 x C-47 shot down (some of the C-47s crash landed)

The USN did not fly either of those types in that operation.

Was that you that posted that or did my eyes fail me? Because when I refuted this rather bold claim you never seem to have acknowledged it or even noticed. If you were just trying to be clever and nit pick that those are not USN types, I don't think that was a revelation to anybody.

Apparently, you meant to say "US"?, but you said "USN" four times. To me, that is "misinformation", as you are listing aircraft (Spitfires, C-47s, L-4s) operated by the USAAF as being operated by the US Navy. This can be confusing to say the least, as it is repeated four times in that post.

Look closer. I only wrote USN on the first one, I changed the second line involving Army aircraft (Losses on the 10th) to just 'US' on. I don't think that was "misinformation" unless you think people in this group believe that Spitfires and C-47s were flying from the carriers. The L-4 was flying from the carrier but still with Army pilots. I assume they knew the difference and I believe everyone did.

You also stated this:
"USN Victories: F4F-4 and SBD-3 made claims (from Massachusetts, Sangamon, Swanee, and Santee)"
You are including a battleship along with three escort carriers, as the ships that F4F-4 and SBD-3 aircraft flew from and made claims. I was pointing out that Massachusetts did not operate Wildcats, or Dauntless', only float planes, as it was not an aircraft carrier.

That is just brevity. I was transcribing a lot of information, I didn't feel like spelling it out that the claims were from three ships and the losses from four. So what? Again it's pretty obvious. And I was copying directly from the book - the source which I indicated including page numbers, so anyone else could easily check as many people in this forum have that same book.

Again, sorry if you take offense at my comments. This will be my last post in this thread, as I don't come here to argue or be overly critical. Pretty clear now your mind will not be changed, so I respectfully bow out.

You are right, my mind will not be changed. You have created a firm impression in it.

 

[Andrew Arthy]

Hi 'Schweik',

You wrote as follows: "already flying with the DAF / British which were involved, they arrived in NA in August 1942 ". As I wrote, the 31st FG did not arrive in North Africa in August 1942, they arrived on 8 November 1942, and they never served as part of the Desert Air Force. The Desert Air Force was the Allied air force operating over Egypt and Libya, while the 31st FG operated over central and northern Tunisia under XII Air Support Command, 12th Air Force. They were entirely separate forces, with nearly 3,000 kilometres of desert and Axis forces between them in November 1942. Therefore, it is a little inaccurate to suggest the 12th Air Force was part of the DAF, and that the 31st FG served under the DAF.

Cheers,
Andrew A.

 

[Schweik]

Fair enough, I always considered them basically the same, as other USAAF and RAF units moved from one zone to the other.

For example 57th FG was part of the DAF was part of the "US Desert Air Task Force", which was part of 211 Group the "Western Desert Air Force" in May 1942, then as" IXth FIghter Command" in early 1943 and then into the 12th Air Force in 1943.

I believe several RAF units also transferred between the Egypt / Libya area to Tunisia and vice versa.

My understanding that "Desert Air Force" was both a technical designation of a specific command structure and an informal name for all the combat aircraft supporting the fighting in North Africa, mainly under British command. Hence my comment "DAF/British" which was basically shorthand.

But yes, technically you are right.

 

[Schweik]

Just double checked- 57th FG fought at El Alamein (Oct-Nov 1942 as part of the IXth AF) and then fought in Tunisia and Pantelleria in May-June 1943 (same as the 31st FG). Then they were in Italy under the 12th AF.

 

[Dana Bell]

This is an oversimplification, but to the east, the IX Air Force was part of the (Allied) Desert Air Force. To the West, what became the XII Air Force was part of the (Allied) Northwest African Air Forces. When the merged they formed the Mediterranean Allied Air Forces; the Ninth was send back to the US, then diverted to the UK as a tactical air force to prepare for Overlord. Units remaining in the MTO fell under the Twelfth, then divided into the new Fifteenth (strategic) and Twelfth (tactical) air forces.

Cheers,



Dana

 

[Schweik]

So my assumption that forces fighting in both the West and the East were also referred to (by tankers, ground troops, the navy etc.) as the DAF incorrect? Or that Squadrons and wings etc. moved rather freely from one side to the other?