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As promised, here are the stats on the naval-air battles between Anglo-American and Vichy air forces in Nov 1942. This is from Mediterrenean Air War Vol III, starting on page 33, with combat stats starting on page 65. I'm only going to list the actual losses on each side, but I'll list the aircraft types which made claims. "Losses" means FTR, MiA, shot down, or crash-landed in target area.
Nov 7 1942
British Victories: Seafire IIc, Albacore I, and Sea Hurricane IIb and IIc, and Wildcat IV made claims.
British Losess: 4 x Albacores, 2 x Hurricane IIb, 3 x Sea Hurricane, 2 x Seafire IIc shot down, + multiple damaged
USN Victories: Spitfire V made claims
USN Losses: 1 x Spitfire Vb, 9 x C-47 shot down (some of the C-47s crash landed)
French Claims: D.520 made claims
French Losses: 8 x D.520 shot down, 1 x Boston shot down
Nov 8 1942
British Victories: No British aircraft made claims
British Losses: 4 x Hudson II and V (2 apparently shot down by USN Wildcats friendly fire)
USN Victories: F4F-4 and SBD-3 made claims (from Massachusetts, Sangamon, Swanee, and Santee)
USN Losses: 13 x F4F-4, 3 x SBD, (three of the F4F lost actually landed at "Mazagan" and the crew were captured, one turned over during landing)
USN Mishaps: 2 x F4F ran out of gas and ditched, 1 x SBD accident, 3 x TBF accidents (all during takeoff)
French Claims: French Hawk75A and D.520 (mainly Hawk 75) made claims
French Losses: 8 x Hawk 75A, 1 x D.520 4 x Martin 167, 1 x Potez 63.11, 5 x D.520 "damaged but pilot safe"
French Mishaps: 1 x Hawk 75, 1 x D.520 lost in accidents
Nov 9 1942
British Victories: No British aircraft made claims
British Losses: 1 x Spitfire PR, 1 x Hudson
USN Victories: F4F-4 made claims (7 claims)
USN Losses: 3 x F4F-4, 2 x L-4 (one by friendly fire)
USN Mishaps: 2 x F4F-4 lost in accidents
French Claims: Gawk 75 made one claim
French Losses: 3 x Hawk 75, 1 x Db-7
Nov 10 1942
British: No claims or losses
USN Claims: One claim by an F4F one by a SBD-3 (of a DB-7)
US Losses: 4 x TBF, 6 x Spitfire VB
US Mishaps: 1 x Spitfire, 1 x P-40F crashed on landing
French Claims: No claims
French Losses: 2 x D.520, 1 x Potez 63 (all to flak)
All in all, Shores summarizes the losses on page 88 as:
25 French aircraft shot down + 13 damaged
46 US aircraft "lost to all causes" (25 x F4F-4, 9 x SBD-3, 10 x TBF-1, 1 X OS2U-3, 1 x SOC-1)
My breakdown of the USN planes actually shot down by the French is 16 x F4F, 3 x SBD, 4 x TBF, 1 x L4, 9 x C-47, for 33
On top of that you can add 7 x British fighters and 9 bombers, plus 2 more bombers lost to friendly fire
and 7 x USAAF Spitfires shot down (mostly by flak it seems)
So that's another 23. Total therefore is 25 French vs. 56 Anglo-American.
All in all I'd say the French gave a good accounting of themselves, despite being heavily outnumbered and probably at least somewhat ambivalent, and flying 1940 vintage aircraft many of which lacked self-sealing tanks etc.. They were obviously well trained pilots.
I can't say I love the term 'misinformation' in relation to my post. Maybe you should double check your own sources before bandying such words.
I did make a typo when i wrote "USN Losses" I should have just written "US losses"
On the US Spitfires - they were from the 31st FG whith was a US Army unit already flying with the DAF / British which were involved, they arrived in NA in August 1942 and were apparently flown to a field in Algiers specifically for Torch.
All of what I posted by the way is in Mediterranean Air War Volume III as I noted, and I indicted the page numbers so you can check - the claims and losses begin on page 66, the details on the pages before that. I am confident that there is no misinformation in that book. Several other people in this forum also have the book and can easily confirm.
The L-4s were operating from the US carriers, there is a photo of one on the deck of USS Ranger on page 81. Apparently they were not recognized by the fleet and all of them suffered at least some AAA damage. The book says they were using them for artillery (and presumably, shore bombardment) spotting.
The C-47s were used to drop paratroopers, the book says they were with the 60th Troop Carrier Group. They get into this on page 59. Losses listed on page 66 were from the 10th and 12th squadrons of the 60th TCG.
The Massachusetts launched an OS2U-3 which was shot down, unit shown was V0-7. This is on page 76. The majority of the USN losses were from the Ranger and Santee.
I did make a typo when i wrote "USN Losses" I should have just written "US losses"
On the US Spitfires - they were from the 31st FG whith was a US Army unit already flying with the DAF / British which were involved, they arrived in NA in August 1942 and were apparently flown to a field in Algiers specifically for Torch.
I'm still a little confused. Did you read my reply? Everything I posted was correct, there were no typos. I believe my sources are good.
To be very clear, I think you should have checked YOUR sources before throwing words around and accusing people of making mistakes let alone misinformation. You were incorrect in your claim that no C-47s or L-4s were used in Torch.
I'm still a little confused. Did you read my reply? Everything I posted was correct, there were no typos. I believe my sources are good.
To be very clear, I think you should have checked YOUR sources before throwing words around and accusing people of making mistakes let alone misinformation. You were incorrect in your claim that no C-47s or L-4s were used in Torch.
Thanks for the interesting post. I have a couple of small corrections. The 31st FG arrived in North Africa on 8 November 1942, having flown from Gibraltar - they never flew with the DAF. They had arrived in England in June 1942 and flew some operations from there. They then sailed to Gibraltar in late-October and early November and picked up new Spitfires, before flying to Tafaraoui near Oran on 8 November 1942. Their claims against D.520s were made at 17:00 on 8 November 1942, rather than 7 November 1942 as you write.
Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com
Let me respectfully try to point out what I was referring to in your post that I was questioning. I will quote you directly:
There seems to be some misinformation in those stats, either from the original source, or typos when copied? For example:
USN Victories: Spitfire V made claims
USN Losses: 1 x Spitfire Vb, 9 x C-47 shot down (some of the C-47s crash landed)
The USN did not fly either of those types in that operation.
Apparently, you meant to say "US"?, but you said "USN" four times. To me, that is "misinformation", as you are listing aircraft (Spitfires, C-47s, L-4s) operated by the USAAF as being operated by the US Navy. This can be confusing to say the least, as it is repeated four times in that post.
You also stated this:
"USN Victories: F4F-4 and SBD-3 made claims (from Massachusetts, Sangamon, Swanee, and Santee)"
You are including a battleship along with three escort carriers, as the ships that F4F-4 and SBD-3 aircraft flew from and made claims. I was pointing out that Massachusetts did not operate Wildcats, or Dauntless', only float planes, as it was not an aircraft carrier.
Again, sorry if you take offense at my comments. This will be my last post in this thread, as I don't come here to argue or be overly critical. Pretty clear now your mind will not be changed, so I respectfully bow out.