Operation Torch Air Battle

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So my assumption that forces fighting in both the West and the East were also referred to (by tankers, ground troops, the navy etc.) as the DAF incorrect? Or that Squadrons and wings etc. moved rather freely from one side to the other?

Hi Schweik,

You are correct that your assumption is incorrect. The units had different commanders, different lines of authority, and even different aircraft markings.camouflage. When the IX and XII began to merge there was some reorganization of groups - heavy bombers to one AF, medium bombers to another - until the IX was "retired." By late 1943 your could often recognize which organization an aircraft had started with just from the vestigal markings...

Cheers,


Dana
 

Well I happen to know of several squadrons which moved from one to the other, so far as I know the camouflage didn't change. I already mentioned one of them - the US 57th FG.
 
Well I happen to know of several squadrons which moved from one to the other, so far as I know the camouflage didn't change. I already mentioned one of them - the US 57th FG.

Hi Schweik,

Of course units shifted between commands; it's just a question of when they shifted - usually the shifts occurred during the creation of the MAAF. But from that point on, you could see camouflage and markings changes that reflected the air force to which the aircraft was originally assigned.

For example, the 57th's P-40s arrived with US Sand over Neutral Gray camouflage, two wing insignia, and two fuselage insignia. When assigned to the Ninth, the 57th tended to follow British practices, adding an insignia below the left wing and above the right wing and adding an RAF fin flash to either side of the tail.

Nearly all of the Twelfth's P-40s arrived with British-style Dark Earth/Middlestone/Azure Blue camouflage, two fuselage insignia, one insignia above the left wing, and an insignia below each wing. (There were some exceptions with four wing insingia.) Initial arrivals at TORCH had thin yellow surrounds to the fuselage and underwing insignia; a few painters mistakenly added to yellow surrounds to the upperwing insignia. TORCH aircraft had US flag decals on either side of the fuselage - hoping the French would welcome us with open arms. The US flags were NOT applied to Ninth AF aircraft. Nor did XII AF aircraft apply the RAF fin flashes - REALLY didn't want to upset the French

The Corps of Engineers for the Northwest African Air Forces created a special camouflage modification that wasn't applied to the Ninth Air Force - an OD pattern was generally painted over Sand-camouflaged aircraft, or a Sand pattern could be painted over OD-camouflaged aircraft. These patterns weren't used by the Ninth, but were later applied to aircraft formerly assigned to the Ninth by the MAAF.

The photo below shows 340th BG B-25s in mid-1944. The group began its combat career with the Ninth, then transferred to the Twelfth in August 1943. You can see the Ninth's fin flashes still present, with the upper left wing insignia overpainted. Additionally, three of the aircraft have had their Sand camouflage modified to the Twelfth AF's standards - the Sand camouflage wasn't really needed by aircraft over Italy..



Again, units could move between air forces in an emergency, but the practice wasn't common. A number of Eighth AF bomb groups moved to the Middle East to support the Ninth and to bomb Romanian oil fields - most of their aircraft picked up Ninth AF markings before returning to England.

Cheers,



Dana
 

Thanks, quite interesting. However, my understanding is that the camouflage patterns you are speaking of didn't change from DAF 'style' middle earth dark sand whatever, to the more green and brown colors until they made it across to Italy, i.e. after the conquest of Sicily. Units which went from Egypt / Libya to Tunisia seemed to retain the same range of camoflage schemes., basically all desert camo.

My main knowledge of this flows from reading a lot about the North African fighter units, especially the US fighter units and the 233, 239 Wings of the RAF. I know the paint schemes pretty well I have models of them on the shelf behind me as I type this.
 
57th FG (among others) moved to Tunisia well before the conquest of Sicily.

There were at least two Desert paint schemes too, the famous / infamous solid 'pink' desert sand color, which I don't know what the origin was, and the more traditional RAF / DAF style markings. I've also seen some really weird / unique camo on some of the early to arrive US DB-7 / A-20s


That is a 57th FG P-40K


This (I think from an Osprey book) shows the same P-40K (bottom) with a P-40L which had just been donated to the French


Same French planes (I think colorized)


DB-7 / A-20 Boston, US 47th Bomb Grouo, early 1943 North Africa

47th Bomb Group incidentally was another one which fought both in the West, in Algeria, and in Tunisia, (helping stave off total catastrophe at the Battle of Kasserine Pass) then at Pantelleria and Lampedusa and later Sicily. They were under the 9th AF, 12th AF,, then to something called the "Desert Air Task Force" which was lent to the "Western Desert Air Force" which was later incorporated into the MAC (when the 12th AF seemed to kind of disappear).

Gets a bit complicated.
 
Hi Schweik,

Let me recommend Air Force Colors, Volume II (Squadron/Signal Publications, 1980) for a more thorough explanation of the evolution of America's WW2 desert camouflages and markings.

Chris Shore's A History of the Mediterranean Air War (four - soon to be five - volumes from Grub Street starting in 2012) makes an excellent combat history of the units and organizations (of all sides) that fought in the MTO.

Cheers,



Dana
 
Chris Shore's A History of the Mediterranean Air War (four - soon to be five - volumes from Grub Street starting in 2012) makes an excellent combat history of the units and organizations (of all sides) that fought in the MTO.

Cheers,

Dana

Thank you very kindly Dana,

Interestingly, the OP which got so much criticism was basically (about 95%) a direct copy from Meditertanean Air War, which I stated very clearly in the OP including indicating the page numbers, as many others on this forum also have those books. I have 1-4 and I'm awaiting #5.

It's a shame Vol 1 especially is so poorly bound...

Cheers,

Schweik
 

Right you are! Perhaps I will be a bit more careful about coming in in the middle of a conversation!

Cheers,



Dana
 
So my assumption that forces fighting in both the West and the East were also referred to (by tankers, ground troops, the navy etc.) as the DAF incorrect? Or that Squadrons and wings etc. moved rather freely from one side to the other?

Yes, that would be incorrect. Air units did not freely move back and forth as before Spring 1943, the distances were too great. Certainly the only way to get the attending ground elements and their equipment would be around the Cape of Good Hope, which was neither easy or quick.

the 31st FG did attack target in Tunisia and the Central Med, but that was after the landings in Operation Torch and an advance east across Algeria.

Uncle Ted
 
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Hello Dana
I have a camo Question about about the Torch P-40Fs. It appears when loaded on the carriers, they were in O.D. over Grey but when flown off, they in two tone camo. When I was building a P-40F and looking for Torch colors, I began with photos in the Hangar deck on board which were O.D. yet I could not find any O.D. over Grey on flight decks or after action began, all two tone top colors. Were these P-40Fs painted in transit aboard ship? It seems the flags were applied on board as some went on backwards.
 

Hi Ed,

I don't want to hijack an otherwise interesting thread, so I'll make this quick. The problem is that a number of photos have been published with the wrong captions - no OD and Gray P-40s were delivered at TORCH.

We're dealing with six groups of photos that are frequently thought to come from TORCH.

May 1942 - Ranger delivers P-40Es to Accra to fly across Africa to the CBI. Most are P-40E-1s in British Temperate camouflage

July 1942 - Ranger delivers 57th FG P-40Fs to African coast to fly to Middle East. All are painted AAF Sand over Neutral Gray

October 1942 - Chenango test launches 33rd FG P-40Fs along US East Coast. All are in Dark Earth, Middlestone, and Azure Blue, no special markings

November 1942 - Chenango launches the same 33rd FG aircraft for TORCH; all have added flags and yellow insignia rings. (Ranger provided air cover and support using Navy aircraft.)

January 1943 - Ranger launches 325th FG P-40s to Casablanca. Most aircraft are in Brit camouflage, but a few have OD/Gray. All have flag decals, but none have yellow insignia rings

February 1943 - Ranger launches 58th FG P-40s to Casablanca. Most aircraft are in Brit camouflage, but a few have OD/Gray. All have flag decals, but none have yellow insignia rings

The important thing is that none of the airrcraft were recamouflaged on board the carriers. The first P-40 delivery (for the CBI) certainly had the national markings modified - there are pix showing the red centers being overpainted on board Ranger. Otherwise, I've no pix that show the revision of national insignia on either of the ships.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,



Dana
 
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Many thanks for the details. I always thought the USN would not want flammable over spray in the hangar deck
Thanks again
Ed
 
Just to clarify the loss of the OS2U Kingfisher: From the document "Participation in Operation Torch" from COMTASK-GROUP 34.1, submitted by USS Massachusetts (BB-59): "One (1) OS2U-3, BuNo 5804, piloted by Ens. Thomas A. Dougherty, A-V(N), USNR, and with Ethridge, Robert C., ARM2c, as passenger, was catapulted at 0620 and was last seen at about 0800. There has been no word of the personnel or report of the plane having been found, and it is assumed that this plane was brought down by enemy aircraft or the action of enemy anti-aircraft batteries."
 
The French had ordered 81 F4F-3 / G-36 but never got them, the order being taken by the British. And as they were earmarked for the Aéronavale, it is doubtful that the Armée de l'Air knew a lot about their performance.
 
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Some of the pilots had seen serious air battles against British Commonwealth air forces over Syria previously. Not in the thread Operation Torch across Algeria and Morocco but other French crews had see air battles against Thailand and Commonwealth air forces over Madagascar previous to the Torch operations over Algeria and Morocco. Not to mention bombing Gibraltar more than once. Presumably news and lessons were passed back to French North Africa air forces, who themselves had fought the FAA over Mers el Kebir and Dakar.

They had not been in isolation and had been regarded as potential and actual enemies by the Commonwealth and treated interred British air and ship crews as POWs and not well to boot.

There were sound reasons why, when they swapped sides, they were dealt with by the Americans. The real Free French and the Commonwealth forces distrusted them implicitly. The new French Air Force was built around the Vichy staff and the old Free French ones edged out as too embarrassing. But one still does not talk about it.

I heard a (probably apochryphal) story of an RAF Squadron Leader in the late 1940s who flew his squadron to a meet at a French air base. Upon landing he pointedly taxied to in front of the Officers Mess and turned his Vampire sideways on to display his wartime scores of German black crosses, Italian fasces……..and two French roundels….
 

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