Operation Torch Air Battle

[Dana Bell]

So my assumption that forces fighting in both the West and the East were also referred to (by tankers, ground troops, the navy etc.) as the DAF incorrect? Or that Squadrons and wings etc. moved rather freely from one side to the other?

Hi Schweik,

You are correct that your assumption is incorrect. The units had different commanders, different lines of authority, and even different aircraft markings.camouflage. When the IX and XII began to merge there was some reorganization of groups - heavy bombers to one AF, medium bombers to another - until the IX was "retired." By late 1943 your could often recognize which organization an aircraft had started with just from the vestigal markings...

Cheers,


Dana

 

[Schweik]

Hi Schweik,

You are correct that your assumption is incorrect. The units had different commanders, different lines of authority, and even different aircraft markings.camouflage. When the IX and XII began to merge there was some reorganization of groups - heavy bombers to one AF, medium bombers to another - until the IX was "retired." By late 1943 your could often recognize which organization an aircraft had started with just from the vestigal markings...

Cheers,


Dana

Well I happen to know of several squadrons which moved from one to the other, so far as I know the camouflage didn't change. I already mentioned one of them - the US 57th FG.

 

[Dana Bell]

Well I happen to know of several squadrons which moved from one to the other, so far as I know the camouflage didn't change. I already mentioned one of them - the US 57th FG.

Hi Schweik,

Of course units shifted between commands; it's just a question of when they shifted - usually the shifts occurred during the creation of the MAAF. But from that point on, you could see camouflage and markings changes that reflected the air force to which the aircraft was originally assigned.

For example, the 57th's P-40s arrived with US Sand over Neutral Gray camouflage, two wing insignia, and two fuselage insignia. When assigned to the Ninth, the 57th tended to follow British practices, adding an insignia below the left wing and above the right wing and adding an RAF fin flash to either side of the tail.

Nearly all of the Twelfth's P-40s arrived with British-style Dark Earth/Middlestone/Azure Blue camouflage, two fuselage insignia, one insignia above the left wing, and an insignia below each wing. (There were some exceptions with four wing insingia.) Initial arrivals at TORCH had thin yellow surrounds to the fuselage and underwing insignia; a few painters mistakenly added to yellow surrounds to the upperwing insignia. TORCH aircraft had US flag decals on either side of the fuselage - hoping the French would welcome us with open arms. The US flags were NOT applied to Ninth AF aircraft. Nor did XII AF aircraft apply the RAF fin flashes - REALLY didn't want to upset the French

The Corps of Engineers for the Northwest African Air Forces created a special camouflage modification that wasn't applied to the Ninth Air Force - an OD pattern was generally painted over Sand-camouflaged aircraft, or a Sand pattern could be painted over OD-camouflaged aircraft. These patterns weren't used by the Ninth, but were later applied to aircraft formerly assigned to the Ninth by the MAAF.

The photo below shows 340th BG B-25s in mid-1944. The group began its combat career with the Ninth, then transferred to the Twelfth in August 1943. You can see the Ninth's fin flashes still present, with the upper left wing insignia overpainted. Additionally, three of the aircraft have had their Sand camouflage modified to the Twelfth AF's standards - the Sand camouflage wasn't really needed by aircraft over Italy..

Again, units could move between air forces in an emergency, but the practice wasn't common. A number of Eighth AF bomb groups moved to the Middle East to support the Ninth and to bomb Romanian oil fields - most of their aircraft picked up Ninth AF markings before returning to England.

Cheers,



Dana

 

[fubar57]

Two respected authors/historians, one armchair book reader

 

[Schweik]

Hi Schweik,

Of course units shifted between commands; it's just a question of when they shifted - usually the shifts occurred during the creation of the MAAF. But from that point on, you could see camouflage and markings changes that reflected the air force to which the aircraft was originally assigned.

For example, the 57th's P-40s arrived with US Sand over Neutral Gray camouflage, two wing insignia, and two fuselage insignia. When assigned to the Ninth, the 57th tended to follow British practices, adding an insignia below the left wing and above the right wing and adding an RAF fin flash to either side of the tail.

Nearly all of the Twelfth's P-40s arrived with British-style Dark Earth/Middlestone/Azure Blue camouflage, two fuselage insignia, one insignia above the left wing, and an insignia below each wing. (There were some exceptions with four wing insingia.) Initial arrivals at TORCH had thin yellow surrounds to the fuselage and underwing insignia; a few painters mistakenly added to yellow surrounds to the upperwing insignia. TORCH aircraft had US flag decals on either side of the fuselage - hoping the French would welcome us with open arms. The US flags were NOT applied to Ninth AF aircraft. Nor did XII AF aircraft apply the RAF fin flashes - REALLY didn't want to upset the French

The Corps of Engineers for the Northwest African Air Forces created a special camouflage modification that wasn't applied to the Ninth Air Force - an OD pattern was generally painted over Sand-camouflaged aircraft, or a Sand pattern could be painted over OD-camouflaged aircraft. These patterns weren't used by the Ninth, but were later applied to aircraft formerly assigned to the Ninth by the MAAF.

The photo below shows 340th BG B-25s in mid-1944. The group began its combat career with the Ninth, then transferred to the Twelfth in August 1943. You can see the Ninth's fin flashes still present, with the upper left wing insignia overpainted. Additionally, three of the aircraft have had their Sand camouflage modified to the Twelfth AF's standards - the Sand camouflage wasn't really needed by aircraft over Italy..

View attachment 611409

Again, units could move between air forces in an emergency, but the practice wasn't common. A number of Eighth AF bomb groups moved to the Middle East to support the Ninth and to bomb Romanian oil fields - most of their aircraft picked up Ninth AF markings before returning to England.

Cheers,



Dana

Thanks, quite interesting. However, my understanding is that the camouflage patterns you are speaking of didn't change from DAF 'style' middle earth dark sand whatever, to the more green and brown colors until they made it across to Italy, i.e. after the conquest of Sicily. Units which went from Egypt / Libya to Tunisia seemed to retain the same range of camoflage schemes., basically all desert camo.

My main knowledge of this flows from reading a lot about the North African fighter units, especially the US fighter units and the 233, 239 Wings of the RAF. I know the paint schemes pretty well I have models of them on the shelf behind me as I type this.

 

[Schweik]

57th FG (among others) moved to Tunisia well before the conquest of Sicily.

There were at least two Desert paint schemes too, the famous / infamous solid 'pink' desert sand color, which I don't know what the origin was, and the more traditional RAF / DAF style markings. I've also seen some really weird / unique camo on some of the early to arrive US DB-7 / A-20s

That is a 57th FG P-40K

This (I think from an Osprey book) shows the same P-40K (bottom) with a P-40L which had just been donated to the French

Same French planes (I think colorized)

DB-7 / A-20 Boston, US 47th Bomb Grouo, early 1943 North Africa

47th Bomb Group incidentally was another one which fought both in the West, in Algeria, and in Tunisia, (helping stave off total catastrophe at the Battle of Kasserine Pass) then at Pantelleria and Lampedusa and later Sicily. They were under the 9th AF, 12th AF,, then to something called the "Desert Air Task Force" which was lent to the "Western Desert Air Force" which was later incorporated into the MAC (when the 12th AF seemed to kind of disappear).

Gets a bit complicated.

 

[Dana Bell]

Hi Schweik,

Let me recommend Air Force Colors, Volume II (Squadron/Signal Publications, 1980) for a more thorough explanation of the evolution of America's WW2 desert camouflages and markings.

Chris Shore's A History of the Mediterranean Air War (four - soon to be five - volumes from Grub Street starting in 2012) makes an excellent combat history of the units and organizations (of all sides) that fought in the MTO.

Cheers,



Dana

 

[Schweik]

Chris Shore's A History of the Mediterranean Air War (four - soon to be five - volumes from Grub Street starting in 2012) makes an excellent combat history of the units and organizations (of all sides) that fought in the MTO.

Cheers,

Dana

Thank you very kindly Dana,

Interestingly, the OP which got so much criticism was basically (about 95%) a direct copy from Meditertanean Air War, which I stated very clearly in the OP including indicating the page numbers, as many others on this forum also have those books. I have 1-4 and I'm awaiting #5.

It's a shame Vol 1 especially is so poorly bound...

Cheers,

Schweik

 

[Dana Bell]

Thank you very kindly Dana,

Interestingly, the OP which got so much criticism was basically (about 95%) a direct copy from Meditertanean Air War, which I stated very clearly in the OP including indicating the page numbers, as many others on this forum also have those books. I have 1-4 and I'm awaiting #5.

It's a shame Vol 1 especially is so poorly bound...

Cheers,

Schweik

Right you are! Perhaps I will be a bit more careful about coming in in the middle of a conversation!

Cheers,



Dana

 

[Schweik]

Small tidbits often get pounced on around here, so no worries. I appreciate the corrections and information about the two distinct command structures, it was a good reminder.

 

[unkated]

So my assumption that forces fighting in both the West and the East were also referred to (by tankers, ground troops, the navy etc.) as the DAF incorrect? Or that Squadrons and wings etc. moved rather freely from one side to the other?

Yes, that would be incorrect. Air units did not freely move back and forth as before Spring 1943, the distances were too great. Certainly the only way to get the attending ground elements and their equipment would be around the Cape of Good Hope, which was neither easy or quick.

the 31st FG did attack target in Tunisia and the Central Med, but that was after the landings in Operation Torch and an advance east across Algeria.

Uncle Ted

 

[Schweik]

Well the 57th FG moved across ...

 

[special ed]

Hello Dana
I have a camo Question about about the Torch P-40Fs. It appears when loaded on the carriers, they were in O.D. over Grey but when flown off, they in two tone camo. When I was building a P-40F and looking for Torch colors, I began with photos in the Hangar deck on board which were O.D. yet I could not find any O.D. over Grey on flight decks or after action began, all two tone top colors. Were these P-40Fs painted in transit aboard ship? It seems the flags were applied on board as some went on backwards.

 

[Schweik]

Two respected authors/historians, one armchair book reader

And one crow sitting on a wire.

How do you know I'm not a respected author and historian?

 

[Dana Bell]

Hello Dana
I have a camo Question about about the Torch P-40Fs. It appears when loaded on the carriers, they were in O.D. over Grey but when flown off, they in two tone camo. When I was building a P-40F and looking for Torch colors, I began with photos in the Hangar deck on board which were O.D. yet I could not find any O.D. over Grey on flight decks or after action began, all two tone top colors. Were these P-40Fs painted in transit aboard ship? It seems the flags were applied on board as some went on backwards.

Hi Ed,

I don't want to hijack an otherwise interesting thread, so I'll make this quick. The problem is that a number of photos have been published with the wrong captions - no OD and Gray P-40s were delivered at TORCH.

We're dealing with six groups of photos that are frequently thought to come from TORCH.

May 1942 - Ranger delivers P-40Es to Accra to fly across Africa to the CBI. Most are P-40E-1s in British Temperate camouflage

July 1942 - Ranger delivers 57th FG P-40Fs to African coast to fly to Middle East. All are painted AAF Sand over Neutral Gray

October 1942 - Chenango test launches 33rd FG P-40Fs along US East Coast. All are in Dark Earth, Middlestone, and Azure Blue, no special markings

November 1942 - Chenango launches the same 33rd FG aircraft for TORCH; all have added flags and yellow insignia rings. (Ranger provided air cover and support using Navy aircraft.)

January 1943 - Ranger launches 325th FG P-40s to Casablanca. Most aircraft are in Brit camouflage, but a few have OD/Gray. All have flag decals, but none have yellow insignia rings

February 1943 - Ranger launches 58th FG P-40s to Casablanca. Most aircraft are in Brit camouflage, but a few have OD/Gray. All have flag decals, but none have yellow insignia rings

The important thing is that none of the airrcraft were recamouflaged on board the carriers. The first P-40 delivery (for the CBI) certainly had the national markings modified - there are pix showing the red centers being overpainted on board Ranger. Otherwise, I've no pix that show the revision of national insignia on either of the ships.

Hope this helps!

Cheers,



Dana

 

[special ed]

Many thanks for the details. I always thought the USN would not want flammable over spray in the hangar deck
Thanks again
Ed

 

[Doug Campbell]

I can't say I love the term 'misinformation' in relation to my post. Maybe you should double check your own sources before bandying such words.

I did make a typo when i wrote "USN Losses" I should have just written "US losses"

On the US Spitfires - they were from the 31st FG whith was a US Army unit already flying with the DAF / British which were involved, they arrived in NA in August 1942 and were apparently flown to a field in Algiers specifically for Torch.

All of what I posted by the way is in Mediterranean Air War Volume III as I noted, and I indicted the page numbers so you can check - the claims and losses begin on page 66, the details on the pages before that. I am confident that there is no misinformation in that book. Several other people in this forum also have the book and can easily confirm.

The L-4s were operating from the US carriers, there is a photo of one on the deck of USS Ranger on page 81. Apparently they were not recognized by the fleet and all of them suffered at least some AAA damage. The book says they were using them for artillery (and presumably, shore bombardment) spotting.

The C-47s were used to drop paratroopers, the book says they were with the 60th Troop Carrier Group. They get into this on page 59. Losses listed on page 66 were from the 10th and 12th squadrons of the 60th TCG.

The Massachusetts launched an OS2U-3 which was shot down, unit shown was V0-7. This is on page 76. The majority of the USN losses were from the Ranger and Santee.

Just to clarify the loss of the OS2U Kingfisher: From the document "Participation in Operation Torch" from COMTASK-GROUP 34.1, submitted by USS Massachusetts (BB-59): "One (1) OS2U-3, BuNo 5804, piloted by Ens. Thomas A. Dougherty, A-V(N), USNR, and with Ethridge, Robert C., ARM2c, as passenger, was catapulted at 0620 and was last seen at about 0800. There has been no word of the personnel or report of the plane having been found, and it is assumed that this plane was brought down by enemy aircraft or the action of enemy anti-aircraft batteries."

 

[Frog]

I found the book interesting because of giving the identities of those involved where possible. Most of the French had been active in combat in France yet they seemed to have difficulty with the Wildcats although the French had their own Wildcats and should have known the capabilities of them. For instance: "The American pilots found themselves up against determined Frenchmen, many of whom had already seen combat during the battle for France. The Americans on the other hand, were all untested though they were proficient pilots." Combat is described between Wildcats and Hawk 75s ,D.520s, Potez 63-11s and others. One account of a Wildcat pilot bailing out and being shot at by a Hawk 75 while in his chute and returning fire with his handgun. He survived as did the French pilot.

The French had ordered 81 F4F-3 / G-36 but never got them, the order being taken by the British. And as they were earmarked for the Aéronavale, it is doubtful that the Armée de l'Air knew a lot about their performance.

 

[yulzari]

Some of the pilots had seen serious air battles against British Commonwealth air forces over Syria previously. Not in the thread Operation Torch across Algeria and Morocco but other French crews had see air battles against Thailand and Commonwealth air forces over Madagascar previous to the Torch operations over Algeria and Morocco. Not to mention bombing Gibraltar more than once. Presumably news and lessons were passed back to French North Africa air forces, who themselves had fought the FAA over Mers el Kebir and Dakar.

They had not been in isolation and had been regarded as potential and actual enemies by the Commonwealth and treated interred British air and ship crews as POWs and not well to boot.

There were sound reasons why, when they swapped sides, they were dealt with by the Americans. The real Free French and the Commonwealth forces distrusted them implicitly. The new French Air Force was built around the Vichy staff and the old Free French ones edged out as too embarrassing. But one still does not talk about it.

I heard a (probably apochryphal) story of an RAF Squadron Leader in the late 1940s who flew his squadron to a meet at a French air base. Upon landing he pointedly taxied to in front of the Officers Mess and turned his Vampire sideways on to display his wartime scores of German black crosses, Italian fasces……..and two French roundels….

 

[elbmc1969]

The French had ordered 81 F4F-3 / G-36 but never got them, the order being taken by the British. And as they were earmarked for the Aéronavale, it is doubtful that the Armée de l'Air knew a lot about their performance.

I was really surprised that no one pointed this out before.