Opinions, please :)

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by tomo pauk, Apr 1, 2012.

  1. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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  2. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to know where he got his data ...
     
  3. Thorlifter

    Thorlifter Well-Known Member

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    It makes me ask this.....

    I have already heard that the Mosquito was a hot rod and could outrun anything. According to this data, it was equal to slower than both the 190 and 109. Does that mean his data is wrong?
     
  4. oldcrowcv63

    oldcrowcv63 Well-Known Member

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    #4 oldcrowcv63, Apr 1, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
    Which marks did you compare? I compared Bf-109E G to both Mossies. It looked like the early Mossy had a speed advantage over 109E but the gap was closed in later mods (109G). Yet the Mossy retained an advantage within a limited portion of the higher altitude speed regime. Didn't check the 190. Don't know what might be the source of difference in our results. FYI, I am using a MAC. don't expect that to make a difference but there it is.

    I checked a number of types and marks and it looks superficially like it produces reasonable results. I say superficially because I validated no results from any source other than my very flawed memory.
     
  5. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    Tomo - I personally think HiTech and his guys have a far better model and approach to the models than any other Sim game/group.

    My only disagreement is in the ethererial plane of trying to model high G/High angle of attack drag - where angle of attack profile drag is both very high and increasingly dominant. But nobody does and there are only a few historical docs addressing this issue.
     
  6. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    If you take the Photo Recon version out which was stripped of armor, guns etc -it probably was faster than a 190A-7 above 21K and faster that a 109G-6 (barely). Take the night fighter or bomber version and lighten them up and probably both the 109G-6 and Fw 190A-7 were faster through 21K, where the A7 would fall off faster than the Merlin driven Mossie.

    The 109G-10 and K-4 should be faster at all altitudes. Ditto Fw 190D-9 and certainly D-13
     
  7. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    #7 GregP, Apr 1, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2012
    Drgondog,

    Some of the data that have been given in here for the Mosquito are at odds with the wartime data and post-war experience of flying them. They were fast, but not nearly so fast as has been described in here in several threads. They were mostly 360 - 370 mph airplanes that mostly cruised at 280 - 320 mph unless threatened. The 400 mph untis were unarmed with souped up engines and clean airframes.

    Some folks take the highest speed associated with a particular aircraft family, whether a prototype or not, and associate it in their minds with the entire series.

    Same with Mustangs, Spitfires, etc. A P-51D might have gone 437 mph on a factory test flight but, after two months in the field and in combat, it was probably huffing to get 410 mph at the same altitude.

    Wartime Mosquitos were mostly not kept in a hangar and clean waxed every few days. They were kept in the open, got dirty, and were fixed when it was reqired for operations. The engines were tuned as from the factolry only for the first few flights and were then subject to squadron maintenance. Propellers got abraided every day and had to be dressed with a file or sandpaper. In England, it rains frequently, particularly at certain times of the year. Wartime Mosquitos were dirty, muddy, greasy and oily with a trace of coolant on them, too.

    However, you touch on a good point. Where did the linked site get their data? It would be interesting to know and comapre with wartime data.
     
  8. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    As far as I know the HiTech team has developed modeling techniques that modify span wise airfoil sections in incremental section to develop a nice theoretical span wise lift distribution and can break down to localized lift and extrapolate to very nice 3-d modelling capability - then have compared to flight tests.

    Nobody has data on asymmetrical flight conditions such as turns so - if the model has been adapted to account for this, I have not seen the results.

    BTW - Christina Olds is going to be out at the Planes of Fame Airshow..
     
  9. N4521U

    N4521U Well-Known Member

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    I smell gas!
    Do You?
     
  10. fastmongrel

    fastmongrel Well-Known Member

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    Looks like it is a fun guide to compare aircraft performance. It wont be perfect but then what will be perfect, treat it as a quick guide and you cant go wrong. Dont stress if its a whole %point out.
     
  11. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

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    Greg, there are different levels of performance for Mosquitoes as fighters/fighter-bomber, bombers and PR aircraft.

    Fighters and Fighter-bombers had flat windscreens which cost a few mph.

    The early verions of all had single speed single stage engines. The very early Mossies had "saxophone" exhausts which also cost some mph compared to later versions with ejector exhausts.

    For PR I and B IV series ii the max speed was 380mph. Early fighter versions with single stage engines had max speeds of 370mph.

    From early in 1943 Mosquitoes began to be equipped with two stage Merlins - 70 series. The PRIX and BIX were capable of about 400mph. The PRXVI and BXVI introduced later in 1943 were able to do 408mph - though some sources suggest this is with a 4000lb bomb load in the case of the BXVI.

    The fastest speed recorded by a Mosquito was by a prototype - 437mph @ 29,200ft by W4050 (the original prototype - which you can see in Hatfield today, currently being restored) in July 1942 using Merlin 61s. I think another prototype went slightly faster, but I can't confirm that.

    The fighter bomber variant - the FBVI was also introduced in 1943. These only ever used the single stage engines and were good for about 370mph.

    The single stage fighters - the FII, NFII, NFXII, NFXIII and NFXIX were all maxxed out at 370mph. The two stage NFXXX, introduced in 1944, was capable of 424mph. The NF36 was an improved version of the XXX, the NF38 was a failure due to modifications required to fit the radar destroyed the handling. The NFXV was a high altitude version based on teh BIV but with Merlin 61s.

    The Aces High grapher shows the BXVI to be faster than an Fw190A-8 from 4,000ft to 16,000ft, then again from 22,000ft up. The advantage for either aircraft is usually about 10mph, with the A-8 having its biggest advantage of c.15mph at 19,000ft. The Mosquito's biggest advantage is above 22,000ft, with about 30mph advantage at 32,000ft.

    The D-9 does indeed hold the advantage at all altitudes, but its biggest advantage is, again, at 19,000ft and below. Above 25,000ft the advantage reduces.

    The graph shows the BXVI to hold the advantage against the Bf109G-6 at altitudes above 6,000ft, and matches it below. Bf109K-4 holds the speed advantage at all heights, by as much as 50mph.
     
  12. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

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    #12 wuzak, Apr 3, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2012
    Note that the Mosquito BXVI could also outclimb the Fw190A-8 from 4,000ft-14,000ft and then above 19,000ft.

    Also note that Mosquitos rarely, if ever, used PN150 fuel. That would certainly bulk up the performance below critical altitudes.
     
  13. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

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    All Mosquito bombers and PR aircraft were unarmed. The "souped up" engines were the two stage 70-series Merlins.
     
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