Out of the Big Three WW2 bombers (B-17, B-24, Lancaster), was the Flying Fortress the most redundant? (3 Viewers)

[Frog]

I think perhaps maritime patrol was really the forte of the B-24, though it didn't have great ditching characteristics, it's very long range and endurance, and large bomb load were all helpful in this role.

During the war in Indochina, the French Navy Privateers pilots did not hesitate to perform low level strike bombing and straffing (twelve .50 MGs were too tempting not to use).
But it is true it was considered as difficult to handle.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

During the war in Indochina, the French Navy Privateers pilots did not hesit to perform low level strike bombing and straffing (twelve .50 MGs were too tempting not to use).
But it is true it was considered as difficult to handle.

I mean, don't get me wrong, it was very successful as a bomber too, and not just in the Strategic bombing role. I think the Allies destroyed more luftwaffe fighters on the ground with B-24s than they did in the air during the whole war in North Africa. I just think it's ideal role was as a Maritime patrol bomber.

 

[pinehilljoe]

Does anyone know why Ford's Willow Run was dedicated to B-24 production and not B-17? Could it be as simple as Consolidated gave Ford a better financial offering, like lower royalty fees vs. Boeing? Or did the War Department dictate Willow Run build B-24s?

 

[GrauGeist]

Does anyone know why Ford's Willow Run was dedicated to B-24 production and not B-17? Could it be as simple as Consolidated gave Ford a better financial offering, like lower royalty fees vs. Boeing? Or did the War Department dictate Willow Run build B-24s?

B-17s were being built by Boeing, Douglas and Vega, the war department didn't think additional assembly sites were needed.

As it was, B-24s were being built by Consolidated (two plants), Ford, North American, Bell and Douglas.

 

[Shortround6]

Does anyone know why Ford's Willow Run was dedicated to B-24 production and not B-17? Could it be as simple as Consolidated gave Ford a better financial offering, like lower royalty fees vs. Boeing? Or did the War Department dictate Willow Run build B-24s?

You need to see who was actually paying for what in many of these war contracts.
Ford did not pay for the Plant that built R-2800 engines. Ford was paid by the US government to build the factory (using sub-contractors) and much/most of the machinery was paid for by the US government.
Well before Pearl Harbor things like structural steel and cement were under government control and were allocated to construction projects to prevent "profiteering" of even construction materials.
Not saying there was never anything crooked going on or there weren't sweetheart deals on occasion but at least for the length of the war they were at a minimum.
Ford actually paid for Willow run to be built but then sold it to the government and then leased the plant back from the government for the duration of the war (B-24 production) with an option to buy the plant back at the end of the war.
The US did a lot of things wrong in WW I (and earlier wars) and they were trying to prevent some of those things in WW II.
Willow run was started in late 1940 or early 1941 before any B-17s or B-24s had seen combat, in fact the first B-17E didn't fly until Sept 5th 1941.
The factory planners were operating in the dark. They didn't know how good or bad either plane really was.

 

[GrauGeist]

Actually, the British had the Liberator in service before the U.S., but oddly enough, used it as a transport for the most part! This of course, changed as the war gained in intensity.

In regards to Ford, their plant was finished in '41 and the first B-24 rolled off the assembly line in '42. At it's peak, Ford was rolling off a new B-24 at the rate of one an hour.

 

[muskeg13]

Does anyone know why Ford's Willow Run was dedicated to B-24 production and not B-17? Could it be as simple as Consolidated gave Ford a better financial offering, like lower royalty fees vs. Boeing? Or did the War Department dictate Willow Run build B-24s?

Could it be that the B-24 was easier to mass produce and Ford had the history of pioneering mass production? The War Department knew we and our allies were going to need many thousands of heavy bombers as quickly as they could be built and put into service and the B-24 fit that bill better, so Ford designed and built the Willow Run facility with that in mind. Once the initial production hic-ups were worked out, it's claimed that Willow Run was turning out a completed B-24 every 63 minutes during it's two daily 9-hour work shifts!

 

[drgondog]

I ran down that photo back in the 1970s - those are actually all Army Air Forces aircraft at the Tucson Mod Center. The white ones are wearing one of the Army's anti-sub schemes of OD and white, a scheme applied in spring 1943. By autumn the Army was able to pass the ASW mission to the Navy, which finally developed the two Gull Gray/White schemes.

On the original topic, Doolittle complained to Arnold that his B-24 crews were facing a moral problem. On combined missions their Liberators were always flying at lower altitudes than the Fortress groups and struggling to keep up.

Cheers,



Dana

Hi Dana, by the time Doolittle reached 8th AF, the B-24 BGs were separated into 2nd BD only and for about a year before B-17BGs were receiving B-24s in 1945. IIRC he chose the same approach in MTO when he had 12th AF in the summer of 1943.


The reason was dissimilar performance envelope. Perusing 2nd BD/AD mission statements showed the cruise and bombing altitudes were between 18-22K throughout 1944. At 25,000 feet which was normal for B-17 the B-24 was above FTH and struggling to maintain pace. At 20,000 feet it was 25kts faster than B-17

 

[EwenS]

In late 1940 / early 1941 the US Govt created the Liberator Production Pool to add an initial 100 B-24 per month to the expected capacity of the Consolidated San Diego plant. That was increased to 350pm more in early 1941. To do that it was necessary to add three new production plants to the Programme. These were

Consolidated Fort Worth
Douglas Tulsa
Ford Willow Run, which was, in the initial plan, to produce sub-assemblies for the above two. Sometime in 1941 (sources I have immediately to hand disagree about exactly when - being either spring 1941 or Oct that year) this was altered to adding complete aircraft to the plan.

Then in Jan 1942, after Pearl Harbor a fifth plant, North American Dallas, was added.

The Liberator Production Pool

Liberator Production Pool

The B-24 Liberator was produced in larger numbers than any other American military aircraft. This was achieved through the creation of the Liberator Production Pool which saw the aircraft produced at five factories run by three different companies, amongst them the massive Ford plant at Willow Run.

www.historyofwar.org

All the early B-24/A/B/C and export LB-30s were built by Consolidated San Diego. Production switched to the B-24D in Jan 1942, with that plant supplying kits to kick start production at Fort Worth and Tulsa from May and August 1942 respectively. These were all designated B-24D.

After sorting many labour issues Ford produced its first complete Liberator in May 1942. That was a B-24E. While essentially a D, it had a number of features to distinguish it. Meanwhile it continued to supply kits for assembly in other plants.

15 May 1942 | This Day in Aviation

Joe Baugher notes the first Ford built B-24 aircraft left the production line at Willow Run in Sept 1942, so maybe the May aircraft was a "kit" from elsewhere. Note the lack of follow up aircraft on the line.

There is a photo here of a B-24 knock down kit produced by Willow Run for assembly elsewhere.

View: https://www.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=985043487369827&id=100075925548307

North American Dallas also built a version of the D as the B-24G between March 1943 and June 1944.

If you look through the serial numbers for each model on the Joe Baugher site you can catch glimpses of how the "kits" got moved around. The plant suffixes on the models were:-

CO - Consolidated San Diego
CF - Consolidated Fort Worth
DT - Douglas Tulsa
FO - Ford Willow Run
NT - North American Dallas

Consolidated B-24 Liberator

All the B-17s up to and including the B-17E were produced by Boeing. Only with the B-17F (first flights May 1942) were other companies brought into the programme. Vega Burbank (Lockheed Vega from Nov 1943) started production in summer 1942 (I've seen dates between May & Aug in different sources) after receiving plans and a pattern aircraft. That plant had been building Hudsons for the RAF.

The Douglas Long Beach plant had been built in 1941 to supply C-47s to the USAAF. Part of the space was turned over in summer 1942 to B-17 production starting with the F model.

What I can't currently tell is just how much of this B-17 production expansion was planned before Pearl Harbor.

 

[Shortround6]

It is not only the aircraft, it was the engines to power them and other items (power turrets for one).
Buick and Chevrolet built large factories for R-1830s and Studebaker built a large factory for R-1820s. Initial contracts for at least two were signed in 1940.
The US was locked into the B-17 and B-24 and while it was possible to shift, such a shift would mean hundreds of aircraft not built and thousands of engines not built while the shift was being made.

 

[GrauGeist]

It was my understanding that Bell Aircraft manufactured a series of B-24s before switching to B-29 production?

This would have been at their Murrieta, Georgia facility (code BA).

 

[EwenS]

It was my understanding that Bell Aircraft manufactured a series of B-24s before switching to B-29 production?

This would have been at their Murrieta, Georgia facility (code BA).

While there are references to this on the Internet, I can't find any reference to Bell building B-24s in my published sources. The Liberator Production Pool consisted only of the five factories I noted previously. Bell also does not appear on the list of seven B-24 Modification Centers. None of the B-24 models produced had -BA suffixes.

Bell received a contract in Sept 1941 for assembly of 5 pilot ship B-29 built by Boeing, plus 250 to be built from scratch, with the first delivery scheduled for Sept 1943. Later contractual amendments increased the total to 668 B-29/B-29B. From the outset these aircraft were to be built at a new Bell plant at Marietta Georgia.

The timeline for the factory also makes it unlikely that there was time to build any B-24s. Ground was broken on this new plant on 30th March 1942 with construction reportedly taking 54 weeks. There is a photo of the plant dated to May 1943 that shows it was internally far from ready to produce any aircraft. Reportedly work on producing parts for the B-29 had begun before the factory completed.

Bell rolled its first completed B-29 out of the factory at the end of Oct 1943 which made its first flight on 4th Nov. These early Bell aircraft were virtually hand built so took much longer to build than later aircraft. In the end production peaked at two aircraft per day in early 1945.

Edit:- Factory photo dated to May 1943.

Plant Construction

View of the interior of the Bell Bomber plant in Marietta, Georgia before operations.

album.atlantahistorycenter.com

 

[pinehilljoe]

While there are references to this on the Internet, I can't find any reference to Bell building B-24s in my published sources. The Liberator Production Pool consisted only of the five factories I noted previously. Bell also does not appear on the list of seven B-24 Modification Centers. None of the B-24 models produced had -BA suffixes.

Bell received a contract in Sept 1941 for assembly of 5 pilot ship B-29 built by Boeing, plus 250 to be built from scratch, with the first delivery scheduled for Sept 1943. Later contractual amendments increased the total to 668 B-29/B-29B. From the outset these aircraft were to be built at a new Bell plant at Marietta Georgia.

The timeline for the factory also makes it unlikely that there was time to build any B-24s. Ground was broken on this new plant on 30th March 1942 with construction reportedly taking 54 weeks. There is a photo of the plant dated to May 1943 that shows it was internally far from ready to produce any aircraft. Reportedly work on producing parts for the B-29 had begun before the factory completed.

Bell rolled its first completed B-29 out of the factory at the end of Oct 1943 which made its first flight on 4th Nov. These early Bell aircraft were virtually hand built so took much longer to build than later aircraft. In the end production peaked at two aircraft per day in early 1945.

Edit:- Factory photo dated to May 1943.

Plant Construction

View of the interior of the Bell Bomber plant in Marietta, Georgia before operations.

album.atlantahistorycenter.com

"In the end production peaked at two aircraft per day in early 1945."

staggering to think even a less than fully efficient factory was turning out two B-29s a day, while the German's were struggling to get Ju-88s and He-111s in the air.

 

[Howard Gibson]

Could it be that the B-24 was easier to mass produce and Ford had the history of pioneering mass production? The War Department knew we and our allies were going to need many thousands of heavy bombers as quickly as they could be built and put into service and the B-24 fit that bill better, so Ford designed and built the Willow Run facility with that in mind. Once the initial production hic-ups were worked out, it's claimed that Willow Run was turning out a completed B-24 every 63 minutes during it's two daily 9-hour work shifts!

B17s were somewhat cheaper than B24s throughout the war.

http://www.aerofiles.com/aaf-unitcost.html

 

[GrauGeist]

While there are references to this on the Internet, I can't find any reference to Bell building B-24s in my published sources. The Liberator Production Pool consisted only of the five factories I noted previously. Bell also does not appear on the list of seven B-24 Modification Centers. None of the B-24 models produced had -BA suffixes.

Bell received a contract in Sept 1941 for assembly of 5 pilot ship B-29 built by Boeing, plus 250 to be built from scratch, with the first delivery scheduled for Sept 1943. Later contractual amendments increased the total to 668 B-29/B-29B. From the outset these aircraft were to be built at a new Bell plant at Marietta Georgia.

The timeline for the factory also makes it unlikely that there was time to build any B-24s. Ground was broken on this new plant on 30th March 1942 with construction reportedly taking 54 weeks. There is a photo of the plant dated to May 1943 that shows it was internally far from ready to produce any aircraft. Reportedly work on producing parts for the B-29 had begun before the factory completed.

Bell rolled its first completed B-29 out of the factory at the end of Oct 1943 which made its first flight on 4th Nov. These early Bell aircraft were virtually hand built so took much longer to build than later aircraft. In the end production peaked at two aircraft per day in early 1945.

Edit:- Factory photo dated to May 1943.

Plant Construction

View of the interior of the Bell Bomber plant in Marietta, Georgia before operations.

album.atlantahistorycenter.com

This leaves me to wonder if Bell had been allocated a block but weren't able to get production started on the B-24s and went straight to the B-29 instead.

 

[Geoffrey Sinclair]

The USAAF says its heavy bomber (B-17/24/32) 1st line strength peaked at 10,595 in September 1944 (4,552 B-17, 6,043 B-24), absolute strength at 12,929 in April 1945 by which time 3,905 were classified second line. B-17 strength went above B-24 again in September 1945, by end year 1,400 B-17, 1,103 B-24, in June 1946 it was 718 B-17, 143 B-24, in December it was 512 B-17, 15 B-24.

The B-17 first flew on 28 July 1935, the B-24 on 29 December 1939, the latter with the promised improvements giving better range/speed/payload using the same power. The former with the promise of numbers sooner. The USAAF thought the B-24 was the way to go. When the US was not at war production levels were being set at USAAF peacetime expansion plus overseas orders.

Ignoring prototypes.
B-17 initial production in 1937 a year after the contract was signed. B-17B took almost 2 years from contract to first production, the order kept being extended a little at a time, B-17C was 10 months from order to production, which ended in November 1940, B-17D, the biggest order yet at 42, still 10 months to production but done in 3 months. Complete redesign of fuselage for the E model and hundreds ordered in August 1940, production from September 1941. Boeing received a Defence Aid contract for B-17F in June, production from May 1942. Douglas get a big contract in August 1941, production from June 1942. Boeing a USAAF contract for B-17F in September. Vega gets their contract in September, production from June 1942.

The early B-24 orders went through allocations and reallocations, complicated by the foreign orders. Production aircraft were ordered by the US around 8 months before the prototype flew, then a second small batch in August 1940, production began in December 1940. The September 1940 order for 352 emerged as 305 D models from San Diego, 8 from Fort Worth, 4 from Douglas, plus 25 C-87 from Fort Worth, the May 1941 order for 672 emerged as 628 D models from San Diego, 6 from Douglas, plus 38 C-87 from Fort Worth.

Apart from the aircraft from San Diego Douglas only assembled knock downs from Ford, first order May 1941, first B-24E in February 1943.

Ford itself received its first order in October 1941, first production in September 1942, knock downs supplied for all Fort Worth B-24E and H and 57 J-401, E production beginning in March 1943, the contract with Fort Worth was signed in May 1941. Ford also produced 2 B-24E, 1 a knockdown from Consolidated, neither had a Ford "construction number". Peak production was achieved after knock down production ended at 427 in August 1944, or 13.8 per day, by which stage employment was 26,560, down from the June 1943 peak of 42,331 and it was becoming painfully obvious B-24 were being over produced as loss rates declined and the 8th Air Force converted units to B-17

No information on the contract date with North American.

The plant run by Bell at Atlanta only built B-29, while there would have been many what ifs as circumstances changed no indication of any solid decision to built B-24 there.

The XB-29 first flew on 22 September 1941, the 14 YB-29 had been ordered in June, the first production contract just before the first flight and like that first big B-24D order from San Diego, it was split, 240 Boeing, 5 Bell, 5 Martin.

As of 31 January 1943 B-29, still classified as heavy bombers, contracted orders 400 Bell Atlanta, 300 Boeing Renton, 750 Boeing Wichita, 200 Fisher Body Cleveland. Along with 300 B-32 from Consolidated Fort Worth. I do not have all the reports. As of end July 1943 with the new financial year numbers of long range heavy bombers contracted plus not contracted were, 400+300 Bell Atlanta, 300+200 Boeing Renton, 750+500 Boeing Wichita, 0+300 Martin Omaha. Along with 300+63 B-32 from Consolidated Fort Worth. The Fisher Body Cleveland order was gone.

Wichita: YB-29 production from July 1943, B-29 from September, Renton: B-29A production from January 1944, Bell: B-29 production from November 1943, Martin, the 5 B-29 from the Boeing order December 1943 to February 1944, then from May 1944.

 

[Shortround6]

Actually, the British had the Liberator in service before the U.S., but oddly enough, used it as a transport for the most part! This of course, changed as the war gained in intensity.

Early British B-24s (Liberator I & II/LB30s) were not fitted with turbo-chargers and the very early ones did not have self-sealing fuel tanks and did not have power turrets.
Not suitable for combat even in 1941. Later ones with SS tanks and up to 14 .303 guns (two 4 gun power turrets) were still slow and had low operational ceilings.
Not a problem for anti-sub warfare but a real problem trying to operate where enemy fighters existed.

 

[Steamed_Banana]

Liberators became a major type for the British in Burma starting in early 1944, swiftly replacing a bunch of dive bomber, level / night bomber and fighter bomber types in six squadrons.

 

[GregP]

You need to see who was actually paying for what in many of these war contracts.
Ford did not pay for the Plant that built R-2800 engines. Ford was paid by the US government to build the factory (using sub-contractors) and much/most of the machinery was paid for by the US government.
Well before Pearl Harbor things like structural steel and cement were under government control and were allocated to construction projects to prevent "profiteering" of even construction materials.
Not saying there was never anything crooked going on or there weren't sweetheart deals on occasion but at least for the length of the war they were at a minimum.
Ford actually paid for Willow run to be built but then sold it to the government and then leased the plant back from the government for the duration of the war (B-24 production) with an option to buy the plant back at the end of the war.
The US did a lot of things wrong in WW I (and earlier wars) and they were trying to prevent some of those things in WW II.
Willow run was started in late 1940 or early 1941 before any B-17s or B-24s had seen combat, in fact the first B-17E didn't fly until Sept 5th 1941.
The factory planners were operating in the dark. They didn't know how good or bad either plane really was.

The War Department awarded contracts. It was up to Ford to decide which of their properties they would use to build the contract.

Willow Run was never dedicated to B-24s. It was dedicated and owned by Ford. I'm sure their ownership of Willow Run was instrumental in deciding to award the contracts, but it's like asking why General Electric didn't built Westinghouse products. They didn't becasue they were General Electric and not Westinghouse.

 

[EwenS]

Early British B-24s (Liberator I & II/LB30s) were not fitted with turbo-chargers and the very early ones did not have self-sealing fuel tanks and did not have power turrets.
Not suitable for combat even in 1941. Later ones with SS tanks and up to 14 .303 guns (two 4 gun power turrets) were still slow and had low operational ceilings.
Not a problem for anti-sub warfare but a real problem trying to operate where enemy fighters existed.

Initial 1941 deliveries were:-

6 x LB-30A (ex-YB-24 - delivered Jan-May 1941 and used as transports on he Return Ferry Service back to the USA.
19 x LB-30B (ex B-24A) - delivered April-Aug 1941. A 20th aircraft crashed before delivery and became the prototype C-87 for the USAAF. Of these 11 became Liberator GR.I for 120 squadron in Coastal Command flying their first operations in Sept 1941. Some of the other 8 were used as trainers for 120 squadron before all were used as transports on the RFS.

Then there were the 139 LB-30 (from French contract). One lost before delivery with a replacement built). These began to fly in Aug 1941 with deliveries ceasing after Pearl Harbor. The USAAF initially retained 75 still undelivered at that point but then released 23 back to the RAF April-Aug 1942. So the RAF finally received 87 (64 before PH). Of those:-

10 became Liberator GR.II to supplement the GR.I already converted for 120 squadron.
24 started life as transports
53 started life as bombers. 5 were delivered direct to the ME in Nov/Dec 1941 by USAAF crews fitted only with hand worked guns, with one lost en route. The remainder came to Britain where they received their gun turrets / mounts) and became B.II.

The 4 survivors in the ME initially went to form a Liberator flight in 108 squadron whose main equipment was Wellingtons. Other squadrons received them later. Liberator B.II remained in service in the ME until early 1944 often alongside other types.

January 1942 saw 159 & 160 squadrons form on the Liberator B.II along with an OTU. Intended as bomber squadrons for the Far East, 160 squadron's role was was quickly changed to General Reconnaissance. Both squadrons had their aircraft waylaid in the ME for periods of time in the latter part of 1942 before reaching the Far East in Sept 1942 and Feb 1943 respectively.

Later some of these LB-30 / Liberator II were converted to the transport role.