P-38 Lightning vs P-51 Mustang: Which was the Better Fighter?

[parsifal]

If ther p-38s were being assigned the 'bomber escort ' role, whilst the P-51s were being assigned the Free ranging, fighter killing role, that would be consistent with most airforces. The aircraft with the lesser ability to take on enemy fighters would be assigned the role of final defence, to add firepower to that inner ring defence zone. It may also have something to do with the distinctive shape of the p-38....hard to mistake the profile for an Me 109....just my two cents worth

 

[drgondog]

If ther p-38s were being assigned the 'bomber escort ' role, whilst the P-51s were being assigned the Free ranging, fighter killing role, that would be consistent with most airforces. The aircraft with the lesser ability to take on enemy fighters would be assigned the role of final defence, to add firepower to that inner ring defence zone. It may also have something to do with the distinctive shape of the p-38....hard to mistake the profile for an Me 109....just my two cents worth

By the time the 8th AF had enough long range fighters to permit 'free ranging sweeps' in force packages of one per five fighter groups in a Wing (i.e 65th, 66th and 67th) the P-38s were gone. In the October - December timeframe the 353rd, the 78th and 356th P-47 groups converted to Mustangs and the P-47Ms were equipping the 56th FG. It was only in that timeframe when say the 65th FG comprised of 4th, 56th, 355th, 361st and 479th had enough fighters to both protect the 2nd BD as well as send one Group out in front.

Your comment about the distinctive profile/plan view of the P-38 is dead on but they did in fact fly Sweeps - and their most notable day in the ETO was July 7 when Landers led the 55th out in front of the 3rd BD and clobbered 19+ north of Leipzig - then converted to 51s a week later.

 

[scottmsw]

The Lightning was the number one fighter in the MTO. The P-38 first flew combat in the MTO in December of 1942. It flew more escort missions with the 15th Air Force then the Mustang. The 15th Air Force was responsible for destroying the Luftwaffe in their area of operations. I have read a book about the history of the 15th air force. This book details P-38 escort missions. The book states that the P-38 would win air battles with the Luftwaffe and other enemy air forces. I would like someone to comment on P-38 operations with the 12th and 15th air forces.

 

[drgondog]

The Lightning was the number one fighter in the MTO. The P-38 first flew combat in the MTO in December of 1942. It flew more escort missions with the 15th Air Force then the Mustang.

Difficult to get all the data points to substantiate so far. The P-38 starting in November 1942 in North Africa and continuing to the end of the war flew in the 9th, 12th and 15th AF. The totals for ALL of the P-38 Groups throughout WWII in the MTO was 1419 air to air victory credits for 30 months of in theatre operations. The top scoring group was the 82nd which was credited with 553.

What is difficult is to split the scores pre November 1943 to EOW when the 15th AF started operations... so your claim that they flew more escort sorties is dubious.

As only 3 P-38 FGs were attached to the 15th versus four P-51 Groups 7 months later it is difficult to 'prove' that the P-38s flew more escort missions for the 15th AF. What is your source of P-38 escort sorties vs P-51? Remember a LOT of sorties were flown over the Anzio beach head from Jan-June 1944.

The 15th Air Force was responsible for destroying the Luftwaffe in their area of operations.

From November 1943 that is true for the USAAF, not true to discount RAF or discount RAF and USAAF 9th and 12th AF prior to 11/43?

I have read a book about the history of the 15th air force. This book details P-38 escort missions. The book states that the P-38 would win air battles with the Luftwaffe and other enemy air forces. I would like someone to comment on P-38 operations with the 12th and 15th air forces.

It may be amusing to you that one group, powered entirely with the short range Spit and then long range Mustang from May 1944 to EOW destroyed more aircraft in the air (570.5) than any P-38 Gp.. and in less than one year of 15th AF Mustang ops destroyed 376 in the air.

A rough but close total for P-51 credits for the 'non-P-38' Groups are 240(52ndFG), 100(332ndFG),242(325thFG) and 376(31stFG) = 958 air to air scores in less than 12 months of combined escort missions... or ~ 67% of the tally of the P-38 groups in the MTO during the entire war.

Those four 'non-P-38' FG's destroyed (between P-40, Spit, P-47 and P-51) destroyed 1637.5 LW aircraft in the air from early 1943 (after P-38s started ops)... of that total the P-51 destroyed 59% in 11 months to the 41% in the 17 months preceeding P-51 Operations.

So, summary - the top scoring MTO FG was the 31st FG (570.5) which flew Spitfires and Mustangs, the second top scorer was the 82nd FG (553) flying Lightnings, the third top scorer was the 325th (529) flying P-40, P-47 and Mustangs, the fourth was 1st FG flying P-38 (440), the fifth was the 52nd (425) flying Spit and Mustangs.

Source USAF Study 85 Victory Air Credits -USAAF and USAF.

 

[MaximusGR]

P-51 and a very easy choice for me. P-38 design and performance had been and remained lacking throughout WW2. It was effective in the PTO because of its range and because of the low quality of Japanese aircraft and pilots. But so were other aircraft that faced the same opponent and would surely be struggling in the ETO. A theater in which P-38 also performed poorly and thats the reason it was quickly withdrawn and replaced by P-51s and P-47s.

Numbers and kill ratios never mean a lot since its a 'policy' of any winning side of a war to inflate victories and play down losses. If the numbers provided for the P-38 sorties/kills/losses were true it would have never been hastily pulled back from the ETO once large numbers of Mustangs and Thunderbolts were available.

P-38 failed in both the fighter escort and the ground attack role. It had the range to escort bombers in Germany and the ordnance carrying capabilities but not the performance to cope with 109's and 190's, or the ruggeness of the P-47 against AAA.

It was fortunate for the lives of many young American pilots that it was mostly withdrawn by mid '44 as the attrition from ground fire above the targets in Normandy and, later on, Germany would make its losses unsustainable.

Simply put, P-51 could pick up where P-47 left off and take the war to German airspace, finishing off the Luftwafe and winning the air-war. P-38 just couldnt..

 

[Lighthunmust]

I am truly amazed that this thread has gone 400+ posts and there is still debate! The Mustang was very successful in all theaters of the war, the Lightning was not. The Mustang is obviously the best choice if you had to choose between the two if only one could be your air force's fighter. After the war no one wanted to buy surplus P-38s to equip their air force.

 

[michaelmaltby]

"... The Mustang is obviously the best choice" At half the cost.


MM

 

[FLYBOYJ]

It was fortunate for the lives of many young American pilots that it was mostly withdrawn by mid '44 as the attrition from ground fire above the targets in Normandy and, later on, Germany would make its losses unsustainable.

And do have evidence showing that attrition rates were higher than the P-51 during that period? BTW, I agree the P-51 was the superior aircraft but the P-38 did not perform as poorly as you state. There were several P-38 squadrons in the ETO that did not want to convert to the P-51, the 338th Fighter Squadron being one of them. This was confirmed during a conversation with the late Col. Mike Alba, USAF Ret., back in 1994. Col. Alba indicated to me the P-51 was faster and more maneuvable, the P-38 was stronger and a better gun platform.

 

[Shortround6]

It seems that the ETO was the ONLY theater of operations were the P-38 had major problems. It was in great demand everywhere else, from the Mediterranean to the Aleutian Islands to the CBI.

While the number that served in the CBI theater may be too small for a really accurate analysis, it that theater it was claimed that for similar strafing missions for every P-38 lost they would lose 4 P-51s or 3 P-47s. There may have only been a couple of squadrons but for one 5 month period they reported NO non-combat related engine failures.

 

[Lighthunmust]

It seems that the ETO was the ONLY theater of operations were the P-38 had major problems. It was in great demand everywhere else, from the Mediterranean to the Aleutian Islands to the CBI.

While the number that served in the CBI theater may be too small for a really accurate analysis, it that theater it was claimed that for similar strafing missions for every P-38 lost they would lose 4 P-51s or 3 P-47s. There may have only been a couple of squadrons but for one 5 month period they reported NO non-combat related engine failures.

The ETO was indeed the only theater the P-38 had major problems, but it also was the only theater that was more important than all the other theaters combined.

"the CBI theater may be too small for a really accurate analysis"

That makes any comparison only interesting and not something to base conclusions on.

"There may have only been a couple of squadrons but for one 5 month period they reported NO non-combat related engine failures."

I think I heard a rumor that it was Indian curry powder added to the coolant and Chinese Soy they added to the engine oil that was responsible for this reliability.

The P-38 was a great plane and if you read Bodie's book it was the greatest American fighter until you read Bodie's P-47 book and vice versa.

 

[Lighthunmust]

"... The Mustang is obviously the best choice" At half the cost.


MM

Unless you were buying a war surplus P-38 at $1250.00 instead of a P-51 at $3500.00. Of course like cars today the cost of ownership over time is the true cost, in which case the P-51 is cheaper.

 

[tomo pauk]

I am truly amazed that this thread has gone 400+ posts and there is still debate! The Mustang was was very successful in all theaters of the war, the Lightning was not. The Mustang is obviously the best choice if you had to choose between the two if only one could be your air force's fighter. After the war no one wanted to buy surplus P-38s to equip their air force.

Perhaps you'd be so kind to break down the 'success' of each fighter by year theater of war?

 

[Lighthunmust]

Perhaps you'd be so kind to break down the 'success' of each fighter by year theater of war?

Unfortunately my kindness has limits of time and abundance. Sorry Tomo Pauk unless I decide to write a book (doubtful) you'll have to do that research yourself. Just because I rate the Mustang having overall superiority, doesn't mean I don't have high regard for the Lightning. After all the first four letters of Lightning create the beginning of my Forum name. Given the choice and having the money to do so I would buy today a P-38 without hesitation instead of a P-51. The Lightning has a strikingly unique and exotic beauty where as the Mustang is beautiful in a generic California Blonde kind of way.

LIGHtningTHUNderboltMUSTang

 

[pcjoseph1974]

German pilots feared the p-38 more....

 

[FLYBOYJ]

German pilots feared the p-38 more....

Can you provide us with some references to back up your earth shattering statement?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Funny, I have never heard that anywhere?

 

[parsifal]

I hadnt heard of it before this. i would think the aircraft most feqared by a german pilot is the one shooting at him, whatever that might be

 

[MacArther]

I hadnt heard of it before this. i would think the aircraft most feqared by a german pilot is the one shooting at him, whatever that might be

Agreed!

 

[Arossihman]

well, even the books that i read which state that the Mustang was the best say that the P-38 was unfairly overshadowed, from reading the other posts it says that more P-51s were lost in training accidents than P-38s, P-38s were also (i think) in service way before the P-51

the P-51 was used in the Pacific, my grandfather told me numerous stories of P-51s strading nearby airfields in the Philippines, and has also seen a long dogfight between a P-51 and a Zero, and guess what, the Mustang came home, with Damage while the Zero escaped

If the Mustang DOES win so easily, why bother putting up a poll here?

and btw, P-38s werent inferior to German planes

you are correct! the germans called the p-38's the fork tailed devil's because they hated fighting them because a p-38 could send them to hell!

 

[Arossihman]

P38's were in service in 1940.

The P38 was origionally designed as a bomber interceptor, while the Mustang (A-36 model) was origionally designed as a dive bomber.

The P38 was thrust into the fighter role, simply because in 1942 - (first part of) 1944, there were no alternatives.

To my knowledge the mustang was designed as a fighter but pushed into service as a dive bomber because of poor performance. A-36 pilots had to be careful because early P-36's would lose their wings tryin to pull out of steep dives so i think they added dive brakes later on to combat this.