P-38 or Mosquito?
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fubar57
General
Wasn't that with different fuel tanks and armament?
All CoG issues had been sorted. The Dak had a pod that could be swapped in 30 seconds, its appearance put 10,000 osteopaths out of work.
Which was better, the DC-3 or the P-47?
michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
All kidding aside
, I think like with most" which is better" discussions the answer is it depends on the enemy your fighting and the mission your performing. Both great planes in my opinion.
, I think like with most" which is better" discussions the answer is it depends on the enemy your fighting and the mission your performing. Both great planes in my opinion.The Dakota, best version had D-Day stripes, no Dakota was shot down by a 262 which confirms its superiority.
The mosquito seemed more versatile, overall.
And they had to redesign the intercooler, which appeared on the P-38J.
There was some intelligence in that decision, but ultimately, I would say it'd be a bad idea -- the UK and parts of the US and Canada would have suffered some serious deforestation to produce enough bombers.
Gemhorse
Senior Airman
In the book "The Mosquito Log" by Alexander McKee ( ISBN 0 285 62838 0 ) - The Earl Bathurst to the author , 1987 ~ " Would it be of interest for you to know that some six million cubic feet of beech trees were felled in the Cirencester Park Woods to be made into plywood at Lydney, Gloucestershire , for the skins of these aeroplanes ? The trees were felled by a New Zealand military forestry company using bulldozers and huge mobile circular saws of a type never seen in this country before -"
- It took this company of 200 men to fell this, from 3 different forests in 3 years - It was necessary to go through the forests three times - As the demand for timber increased the quarter girth was lowered : this , along with the fact that spare expert men weren't available to clear up as they worked -
The aircraft used birch , spruce , balsa as well as beech and all needed expert handling in the factory - Such was the accuracy of woodworking at De Havilland's that the general workshop tolerances were in the order of plus or minus one ten thousandth of an inch (0.010", or a quarter of a millimetre in metric terms -)
It goes on, it's a really insightful book of how this remarkable aircraft was to be " Britain's wooden wonder weapon " ~
After all, it was stated that the firepower of 4 cannon, 4 machine guns & 8 rockets were equivalent to a broadside from a Cruiser - The RAF Coastal Command Strike Wings were about the most dangerous job given to Mosquito crews - The 'only' 30 odd Mk.XVIII Tsetse variants with the 25 round 57mm Molins cannon were very accurate, able to put 4-5 rounds in on a pass but the rockets were better along and below the waterline and were more of a success ~ The Mosquitoes and Beaufighters usually had Mk.III Mustangs for escort against the Luftwaffe fighters based in Scandanavia ~
- It took this company of 200 men to fell this, from 3 different forests in 3 years - It was necessary to go through the forests three times - As the demand for timber increased the quarter girth was lowered : this , along with the fact that spare expert men weren't available to clear up as they worked -
The aircraft used birch , spruce , balsa as well as beech and all needed expert handling in the factory - Such was the accuracy of woodworking at De Havilland's that the general workshop tolerances were in the order of plus or minus one ten thousandth of an inch (0.010", or a quarter of a millimetre in metric terms -)
It goes on, it's a really insightful book of how this remarkable aircraft was to be " Britain's wooden wonder weapon " ~
After all, it was stated that the firepower of 4 cannon, 4 machine guns & 8 rockets were equivalent to a broadside from a Cruiser - The RAF Coastal Command Strike Wings were about the most dangerous job given to Mosquito crews - The 'only' 30 odd Mk.XVIII Tsetse variants with the 25 round 57mm Molins cannon were very accurate, able to put 4-5 rounds in on a pass but the rockets were better along and below the waterline and were more of a success ~ The Mosquitoes and Beaufighters usually had Mk.III Mustangs for escort against the Luftwaffe fighters based in Scandanavia ~
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,030
- Jun 25, 2013
Well, the DC-3, obviously, because it's got a larger passenger capacity.
I don't really have much data available on the Mosquito NF.VIII variant, which was a high altitude version of the Mosquito, the only data listed was the Mosquito FB.VI, and the NF.XV.
- FB.VI
- Advantages
- It almost certainly had greater range while carrying payload than the P-38G/J (I don't have figures, but common sense would lead me to believe...)
- It had more firepower than the P-38 (Mosquito FB.VI: 4 x 20mm+4 x 7.7mm; P-38: 4x0.50"+1x20mm)
- It had two crew, which probably helped with with navigation at the minimum (I don't know the role of the second-seater)
- I would not be surprised if it had a superior rate of roll than the earlier P-38's, and might have built up a roll-rate faster than the P-38J/L
- It seemed to be a bit faster at around 4700 feet over the P-38G
- It seemed to have a higher maximum mach number than the P-38
- I wouldn't be surprised if it had better survivability at low altitudes over the P-38 (though that's a guess)
- It was probably easier to maintain, and quite a number of people were able to work with wood back then.
- Disadvantages
- It had a lower maximum G-load than the P-38
- It had a higher stall speed than the P-38s (P-38F/G: 97 mph; P-38J: 100-105 mph; FB.VI: 105 mph @ 18000; 109-110 @ 19555),
- I'm not sure if it could dive quite as fast in terms of indicated airspeed: At high altitude this wouldn't mean much as mach-number gets in the way first; at lower altitude it could definitely work against it, assuming my estimate is right.
- It's climb-rate was quite slow compared to nearly every single variation of P-38.
- Advantages
- NF.XV
- Advantages
- It had more firepower (4x20mm vs 1x20mm+4x0.50)
- Climb rate was superior somewhere between 30000-35000 feet
- It might very well have had a superior service-ceiling of 43000 feet
- It might have still been able to achieve a higher mach number in a dive, though the different wing did have a reduced maximum dive-speed.
- It was probably easier to maintain, as quite a number of people at the time were skilled with wood.
- Two eyes in day-time operations (not likely to occur, but) would theoretically give better situational awareness
- Disadvantages
- Maximum dive speeds were reduced over earlier Mosquito variants
- Most combat takes place around 10000-30000 feet, where the P-38's generally hold an advantage in climb rate (the P-38J could achieve a higher speed)
- It had a higher stall speed and lower maximum g-load.
- Advantages
wuzak
Captain
You probably could not data on the Mosquito NF.VIII because such a thing never existed.
The NF.XV was basically a PR.VIII with a gun pack of 4 x 0.303" mgs under the fuselage and extended wing tips. The PR.VIII was a converted B.IV with pressure cabin and Merlin 61s. Only 5 NF.XVs were built.
As the NF.XV was derived from the IV it had the lower drag vee shaped windshield, not the flat panel used on the fighters.
The NF.XV was designed for high altitude combat, to shoot down aircraft like the Ju 86P and R.
Where are you getting your data?
EDIT: I will have to check with books at home as to whether the PR.VIII and NF.XV were the same aircraft, or were different Mk.IVs converted for the two different roles.
The NF.XV was basically a PR.VIII with a gun pack of 4 x 0.303" mgs under the fuselage and extended wing tips. The PR.VIII was a converted B.IV with pressure cabin and Merlin 61s. Only 5 NF.XVs were built.
As the NF.XV was derived from the IV it had the lower drag vee shaped windshield, not the flat panel used on the fighters.
The NF.XV was designed for high altitude combat, to shoot down aircraft like the Ju 86P and R.
Where are you getting your data?
EDIT: I will have to check with books at home as to whether the PR.VIII and NF.XV were the same aircraft, or were different Mk.IVs converted for the two different roles.
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wuzak
Captain
The second crew member was there to provide comfort and support during the mission when the pilot was under his greatest stress. This was done through a carefully crafted program of whispering sweet nothings over the intercom and singing soothing songs. The RAF found this improved mission performance by 37-44%.
OR
The second crew member was the navigator and a second set of eyes to look for enemy fighters. On bomber Mosquitoes the navigator/bomb aimer would often kneel on his seat facing backward to improve the chances of spotting an enemy fighter to the rear. I would not be surprised if the navigator would do a similar role.
wuzak
Captain
I would.
Not surprising, since the P-38 was designed as an interceptor and the Mosquito never was.
Was there an XII? I hate roman numerals...
wuzak
Captain
Yes, there was an NF.XII, which were NF.IIs modified with an improved radar (AI Mk.VIII) and deletion of the 4 x 0.303". The NF.XIII was the same specification, but new build aircraft.
Deleted member 68059
Staff Sergeant
- 1,058
- Dec 28, 2015
1) Your first point "One or two groups just starting operations in Dec of 1943 is hardly going to be that noteworthy" is perhaps missing the point - as the German ranting about the Mosquito started right from the first missions, when tiny numbers were operating. So your point that the p-38 wasnt around in huge numbers is I`m afraid not relevant. I dont remember saying I stopped reading the conference notes at 1943, they continue to almost the end of 1944. The fact is they were not very concerned about the P-38 - this isnt an insult, they were mostly not very fussed about the Spitfire either for most of the war ! - the Mosquito is almost totally unique in the vitriol in which it was discussed in Germany, thats whats in the records.
No. times P-38/Lightning discussed 8
Mosquito = 100+
A typical example:
"27th Jan 1944 - RLM meeting, "MILCH: in the Lightning I do not see a fighter of great threat, even if we only have a small number of our fighters in opposition"
"15th March 1943 - RLM meeting: "Goering: "I'm telling you directly, to just build the Mosquito!" <Goring orders Messerschmitt to just copy the Mosquito and start making them>
This isnt an attempt to make a retrospective performance evaluation, I`m pointing out that this what the thought was about it in Germany during the war.
2) You may if you wish call original archival records "wishful thinking", the fact is that is a page from the official british Air Ministry records, not the discussions in the tea-room of De-Havilland. Like it or not, thats what they were really thinking at the time - I cant find any such discussions about the P-38 (again, thats not an insult to it, that page of praise is basically unique to the Mosquito). I completely agree that the author of that report got a bit excited, but thats half the point - its the Mosquito they were getting excited about.
3) The final point about the anti-ship bomb "occupying too much space" is a little historically unfair, Highball was one of the most secret wartime aviation projects, and was (for quite a while) regarded as a critical development, even more so once the possibility of assaulting the Japanese fleet with it appeared (only not carried out due to "the bomb"). If they had sunk the Tirpitz with it, I think it would be hard to describe it as "occupying too much space". Discussions on its use were made up to and including General Eisenhower and General Arnold (15th November 1944 SHAEF signal marked TOP SECRET"). It seems that the 618 Squadron Mosquitos with Highball didnt quite manage to get themselves set up and trained and practised in time for Operation Paravane (agains the Tirpitz), "historical source" Wikipeadia says because "trials were unsucessful" - however this is flatly contradicted by the actual subsequent test records, which stated that 80% of the Highballs dropped struck the dummy target ship HMS Malaya, and it seems the real reason was just that they didnt manage to get ready in time for the earlier operation, and when all was set up and drilled in time for the planned assault on Japan, they worked very well indeed.
AIR-20/1092 - "SHEAF TOP SECRET, TO EISENHOWER FROM PORTAL - 15th November 1944 - DURING TRAINING No.618 SQUADRON DROPPED 70 INERT HIGHBALLS AGAINST HMS MALAYA ANCHORED IN CALM WATER. ALL HIGHBALLS RAN SATISFACTORALLY AND OVER EIGHTY PER CENT HIT THE TARGET".
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Deleted member 68059
Staff Sergeant
- 1,058
- Dec 28, 2015
I agree 100% that he was half mad, and Messerschmitt told Goring that it would be faster to develop a new plane than copy the Moquito.
I dont have figures on the types of wood available in Germany, but wood as an aviation material certainly didnt get in the way of the Ta154 programme being signed off - (although glue development and lack of the right engines certainly did get in the way....and it was as you say far too late to be of any use anyway).
The Russians used quite a lot of wood, but it is a generic name, it depends entirely on what wood you use. Like saying aeroplanes are made of metal, so any metal will do or can be substituted as required.
I thought it had Merlin 60-70 series?
