P-38 or Mosquito?

[wuzak]

I thought it had Merlin 60-70 series?

Nope.

The first production NF with 2 stage Merlins was the XXX.

 

[Zipper730]

The first production NF with 2 stage Merlins was the XXX.

When did that first fly?

 

[wuzak]

When did that first fly?

Late 1943, early 1944. Not exactly sure.

Went into service about mid 1944.

 

[Zipper730]

Late 1943, early 1944. Not exactly sure.

Went into service about mid 1944.

So the P-38N would be a good comparison against it?

 

[Shortround6]

P-38N

?????

The P-38M was the last version built and they were just P-38Ls that were converted to the 2 seat night fighter configuration.

They don't Start showing up (at the factory) until Feb 1945.
Cramped cockpit for radar operator and the radar may be pretty close or identical to the radar used by the F6F and F4U.

Mosquito MK XXX used a very similar if not identical radar to the P-61

No way this fits in the little pod under the nose of the P-38 and/or does the same job.

 

[Zipper730]

Deleted

 

[wuzak]

So the P-38N would be a good comparison against it?

Deleted

N for "never mind"?

 

[wuzak]

When did that first fly?

First flight March 1944.

Began operations July 1944.

 

[Washing Machine Charlie]

I've seen lots of footage of 190s going down to Lightnings as well. The fact is, that the Lightning, outnumbered and hampered by poor tactics at the time, more than held it's own against both the 190 and the 109.

Let's not forget that early Lightning pilots were not given much in the way of training for combat in a twin-engine fighter and that the plane itself, especially early models, didn't offer much to ease the pilot's load (forgive me, I am not a pilot but remember reading about multiple steps pilots needed to take, in order to respond to hostile threats, that made the plane "less friendly" for inexperienced fliers and a handful for the experienced.

 

[Washing Machine Charlie]

The more engines you have the longer range you'll have, so saying single seat is hiding the fact its a twin-engined plane. And I hope you all realise the more engines the more range, in most circumstances.
More engines gives you power which allows you to carry more fuel. Which in most cases is more than what is required to give you the same range of a single engined plane. 3,750 miles for a late war twin-engined plane isn't impressive when the single engined PR.XI was doing over 2000 miles on one engine.
You have to find a compromise obviously on amount of engines, size and design of plane, and fuel carried. But in WW2 mostly, more engines more range. So it's not surprising the F-5G could do almost double a single engined plane.

B-17 4 engines, 4 times consumption of the Mk.I Spitfire but it out-ranged it...why? Simple really.

I believe, in a rush to defend personal favorites, people are misinterpreting the OPs comment.
I could be wrong, but I believe he is saying that flying so long, alone and stuck in a bucket seat, is an amazing feat, not plane's feat, but, the pilot's endurance is being admired.

 

[Owltiger]

I may be wrong but exactly how many mosquitoes survive today in flying condition? Maybe there should be a sub-category called, "Rust vs Termites and carpenter ants."

 

[Deleted member 68059]

Let's not forget that early Lightning pilots were not given much in the way of training for combat in a twin-engine fighter and that the plane itself, especially early models, didn't offer much to ease the pilot's load (forgive me, I am not a pilot but remember reading about multiple steps pilots needed to take, in order to respond to hostile threats, that made the plane "less friendly" for inexperienced fliers and a handful for the experienced.

I have no figures on the "familiarisation" hours that USAF pilot got with the P38 - but the following figures are useful to know in any discussion involving european combat, there was a mention of 190`s.

From July 43 to June 44 (averaged) - maximum hours of TOTAL flying training
RAF = 360Hours
USAF = 340Hours
GAF = 160Hours

From July 44 to <THE END> - This ...amazingly went UP for the USAF
RAF = 360Hours
USAF = 400Hours
GAF = 110Hours

It should be noted carefully that this is TOTAL hours, not hours on type. So includes glider, trainer etc etc. So the 110 hours quoted for Germany
might look not too awful, but in reality this would have meant only a tiny amount of hours in anything like an actual combat aircraft, and since
these are averaged, you can assume that from 1945 onwards it was probably more like 50hours.

There is another report I have from the same microfilm reel, which states that the P38 was not easy to get used to, and that the engine problems
in the European theatre were very significant, a very high number of "aborts" were recorded by early P38 pilots it says.

- SOURCE: "THE DEFEAT OF THE GERMAN AIR FORCE" - Military Analysis Division, declassified 2nd October 1958.

 

[TheMadPenguin]

After all, wich plane sank the Tirpitz ? I think it was a Spit, wasn't it ?

Lancasters, dropping tallboys.

 

[MiTasol]

I may be wrong but exactly how many mosquitoes survive today in flying condition? Maybe there should be a sub-category called, "Rust vs Termites and carpenter ants."

Four or five rebuilt in NZ with more on the way - others rebuilt in Canada from memory

 

[michael rauls]

Four or five rebuilt in NZ with more on the way - others rebuilt in Canada from memory

That's good news. I had read not too long ago that there was only one airworthey Mosquito in existence.

 

[wuzak]

That's good news. I had read not too long ago that there was only one airworthey Mosquito in existence.

For 15 or 20 years there weren't any.

 

[AlexS]

If you had to pick one aircraft to produce over the other, hands down the mosquito wins. It can do anything the P38 can do, maybe a bit slower etc and maybe less range (only when the P38 was equipped with external drop tanks, not too difficult to re-engineer something there for the Mossie but wasn't required for it's situation), but there was so much the mosquito could do that the P38 couldn't even attempt or be at a high disadvantage. The biggest bomb, Mossie 4000 lb cookie, P38 1000 lb, harder hitting guns, Mossie had multiple machine guns and 4 Hispano cannons being fairly average. The Mossie had a navigator on board, especially relevant for night or low level missions of the day. Lastly producing the Mossie had the advantage of using resources that were under much less demand from other war equipment.

 

[wuzak]

It can do anything the P38 can do

Except be a long range day time fighter

The biggest bomb, Mossie 4000 lb cookie, P38 1000 lb, harder hitting guns, Mossie had multiple machine guns and 4 Hispano cannons being fairly average.

The biggest bomb load the Mosquito could carry when fitted with the Hispanos was 2 x 500lb in the bomb bay and 2 x 500lb on the wings, a total of 2,000lb. That is because the cannons protruded into the forward bomb bay.

Most Mosquito bombers could not carry 2 x 1,000lb bombs, which the P-38 could, mainly because of the size of the bomb bay and the lack of a suitable rack.

Late in the war a rack was developed for 627 Squadron (IIRC) which could carry 2 x 1,000lb Target Indicators (TI), which were the same size as the 1,000lb Medium Capacity (MC) bombs. This required the bulged bomb bay that was developed for the 4,000lb bombs.

Previously the rack developed to carry the 4,000lb bombs was adapted to carry a single 1,000lb TI. At this stage of the war (1944/45) the most important role for Mosquito bombers was as target markers. They could carry 4 x 250lb TIs or 1 x 1,000lb TI.

There was a push for the carriage of more TIs, including a scheme that adapted a bomb beam from a Wellington that would enable the Mosquito to carry 8 x 25lb TIs. This arrangement would also allow 8 x 500lb MC bombs to be loaded, but the CoG would have been to far to the rear for the aircraft to have been stable. Should have moved the IFF....

 

[GrauGeist]

If you had to pick one aircraft to produce over the other, hands down the mosquito wins. It can do anything the P38 can do, maybe a bit slower etc and maybe less range (only when the P38 was equipped with external drop tanks, not too difficult to re-engineer something there for the Mossie but wasn't required for it's situation), but there was so much the mosquito could do that the P38 couldn't even attempt or be at a high disadvantage. The biggest bomb, Mossie 4000 lb cookie, P38 1000 lb, harder hitting guns, Mossie had multiple machine guns and 4 Hispano cannons being fairly average. The Mossie had a navigator on board, especially relevant for night or low level missions of the day. Lastly producing the Mossie had the advantage of using resources that were under much less demand from other war equipment.

All fine examples, however the Mosquito wasn't heavily armed when used as a bomber.
The P-38 could also (and did) operate in climates that were detrimental to the Mossie.
And consider that the P-38 was designed as a fighter that ended up being tasked in different roles.
The Mosquito was a recon/bomber that was tasked into different roles.

Two entirely different types that ended up performing similar roles, but at the time they were conceived none of that was thought of.

 

[AlexS]

As a day fighter in the European theater where the Mossie operated I think the following quote should be taken into account, "General der Jagdflieger Adolf Galland was unimpressed with the P-38, declaring "it had similar shortcomings in combat to our Bf 110, our fighters were clearly superior to it." Heinz Bäer said that P-38s "were not difficult at all. They were easy to outmaneuver and were generally a sure kill"." The P38 record high number of kills in the pacific were against aircraft with certain remarkable qualities, and certain other remarkable weaknesses, and no where near the numbers faced in the European theater, defeating them was more a matter knowing how to defeat them as opposed to the type of aircraft used. It's the P51 that was able to protect the B17's not the P38 and the P38 was around a long time before the P51 and had slightly more range. Lastly, it mattered less if a different variant was required to perform a different roll as there was a lot less aluminum available as opposed to wood, and a lot of piano makers with nothing better to do. As for climatic problems, again, just build another one if they lasted in combat that long.