P-39 D Aircobra vs. Me-109

Koty Owen · Jan 23, 2008

Nice Photos Joeb.

Glider · Jan 23, 2008

drgondog said:
I hesitate to bring up Yeager, who did fly both the 86 and Mig 15 (in rigorous flight tests at Eglin and Edwards) - but he felt both were evenly matched with advantages one way or another, particularly climb rateangle going to MiG. So, One opinion from one who had a lot of time in both. Admittedly his MiG time was in 1953 time frame with the defection MiG.

Not well publicized but he also whacked 3 or 4 MiG's while assigned as air attached to Pakistan in mid 50's while flying the 86 as an 'observer' in their unpleasant disourse..

I would be very suprised if this was the case seeing as the only Migs the IAF had were Mig21's.

drgondog · Jan 23, 2008

Glider said:
I would be very suprised if this was the case seeing as the only Migs the IAF had were Mig21's.

In 1956 timeframe? Not very likely but I will go check I may have the dates wrong

drgondog · Jan 23, 2008

drgondog said:
In 1956 timeframe? Not very likely but I will go check I may have the dates wrong

I stand corrected Glider it was in the 70's after VietNam for him and the IAF were flying MiG-21s, Pakistani AF flying 86's..I thought he had shot down MiG-15s but they were MiG-21J's apparently.

The Pakistani Air Force was flyin 86's, Chinese built MiG 19's and F-104's.

Yeager, according to the back channel, was flying flight lead in an F-86 wing when bounced by IAF MiG's which chose to fight in the horizontal.

FLYBOYJ · Jan 23, 2008

drgondog said:
I stand corrected Glider it was in the 70's after VietNam for him and the IAF were flying MiG-21s, Pakistani AF flying 86's..

I read a few articles from Pakistan about a few MiG-21 vs Saber dogfights. Short on details but it was stated the MiG-21s were dealt with accordingly.

drgondog · Jan 23, 2008

FLYBOYJ said:
I read a few articles from Pakistan about a few MiG-21 vs Saber dogfights. Short on details but it was stated the MiG-21s were dealt with accordingly.

IIRC it was about 3:1 Pakistani over IAF.

FLYBOYJ · Jan 23, 2008

drgondog said:
IIRC it was about 3:1 Pakistani over IAF.

Pretty interesting. They also did well with the MiG-19. Chinese built with a MB seat and armed with Sidewinders. In the 1980s I read it was the 2nd most cost effective fighter to operated behind the F-16!

Soren · Jan 24, 2008

davparlr said:
Soren, I was just watching an article on the Bf-109 on the History Channel and they were interviewing Gunther Rall on the weaknesses of the Bf-109 and he addressed the slats. He said that, under high speed maneuvering, the slats could extend due to gravity, causing a stall. This seems different than jamming. Have you heard of this before?

Hehe, the slats only extend when the AoA increases, so this is probably what Rall was refering to. Rall is often qouted on the slats by certain people, but he hardly understood them, his comments being disputed by the other 109 pilots. Modern day 109 pilots have questioned his remarks about the slats many times, knowing the slats operate flawlessly on the currently restored F G models, and thus are curious as to what made the Emil so different (Rall refers to the Emil about the G-load deployment issue). However fact is that Rall's near death experience in the Emil made him very wary about the slats, and so he never tried turning that hard in a 109 again, but he didn't need to either having perfected his own B&Z tactics as a result of this incident in the Emil.

Rall in the end downed 275 Allied a/c utilizing his own B&Z tactics, very effective.

davparlr · Jan 24, 2008

FLYBOYJ said:
And Dave - discussing Buzz Wagner - I think he was a notch above his peers, if not more....

That was exactly my point. Soren had said " Marseilles wasn't very impressed with their turn performance though, esp. seeig thats how he shot them down..". My point was that Marseilles was also a notch above his peers and that comments by such talented pilots on aircraft performance can be tainted by their own exceptional capability, i.e. they can make lesser performing aircraft successful, therefore they think the plane is better than it actually is.

fly boy · Jan 24, 2008

go p-39 flown by russins man that sweet cus i herd the p-39 sucked with americans so this a surpies

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jan 24, 2008

fly boy said:
go p-39 flown by russins man that sweet cus i herd the p-39 sucked with americans so this a surpies

Huh?

FLYBOYJ · Jan 24, 2008

fly boy said:
go p-39 flown by russins man that sweet cus i herd the p-39 sucked with americans so this a surpies

Did you come up with that all by yourself?

Hunter368 · Jan 24, 2008

Such insightful words from a newbie.

fly boy · Jan 25, 2008

well the p-39 was use less to the u.s so when i learned the russins had a better deal with it i was surpiesed

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jan 25, 2008

Please tell me guys that this is not a product of the US education system anymore. If it is...

Damn it has gone downhill since I went to school in the US.

renrich · Jan 25, 2008

Perhaps he will stay on this forum, emulate some of it's members and learn spelling, punctuation and sentence structure.

Soren · Jan 25, 2008

He's obviously a kid, which is all fine, this is a good place to learn. Whether he learns the correct form of spellings here or in school is irrelevant, as long as it's correct

Marshall_Stack · Jan 25, 2008

I find his avatar a little disturbing.....

Soren · Jan 25, 2008

Me too Marshall, esp. seeing that I love cats.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jan 25, 2008

renrich said:
Perhaps he will stay on this forum, emulate some of it's members and learn spelling, punctuation and sentence structure.

He better not learn from me. I type really fast and do not pay all that much attention to that stuff. I also hardly ever go back and correct things...

P-39 D Aircobra vs. Me-109

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