P-40 vs. Hurricane

Lunatic said:

I respectfully disagree. The Japanese people were willing to sustain tremendous losses in defense of the Emperor. The Japanese military commanders still believed that if they could inflict sufficiently high losses on the Allies the Allies would accept a negotiated surender and they were willing to endure many times that level of losses to achieve this.

Had the USA forgone the use of non-conventilonal weapons (the A-Bomb and nerve gas) Allied losses would have run to the mid 6 figure mark, perhaps even as high as a million. And Japanese losses would have been 10 fold as high. And the Soviets would have ended up in complete control of China and at least two and probably three of the Northern Japanese Islands (they hold one today), if not the entire contry. And the Soviet's would have had no respect for Japanese culteral identity or tradition.

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Sure losses would've been high, but the USA wouldn't have signed any form of Peace treaty with the Japanees, no they would've only accepted a Japanees surrender.

And eventaully, against the might of the USA, the Japs would've surrendered.

Having the A-Bomb dropped on Japan was the best thing that could have happened to them short of a miracle of enlightenment in the Japanese milititary leadership. It saved millions of Japanese lives and allowed them to retain the largest part of their cultural identity. Had they endured a an invasion, even without the Soviets being involved, their culture would have been almost completely lost.

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I agree 100%.

How? They'd have hung back until the critical moment when Hitler made his move and wiped out his invasion force.

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Hung back ? Lunatic, the RN would be sunk before even having the chance to escape.

Hitler didn't have the resources to build a Luftwaffe' large enought to stop that (especially at night).

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Without any RAF, oh yes he had.

Sea-Lion was a fantasy cooked up in a cocain/amphetamine/morphine daze. The German's had no capacity for such an operation and had they tried it the war would have ended much earlier.

Read this essay: http://www.flin.demon.co.uk/althist/seal1.htm

Convinced?

=S=

Lunatic

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Remember Lunatic, we're talking no'more RAF here.

And as your link suggests, the RAF would have had a huge part in defeating any invasion force.

Soren, Alder split the thread the discussion is continuing there not here.

Link: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2842&highlight=

No prob. I already did, I split it into Sorens Really What If Thread. Though it was a great discussion it really did not belong here in this thread and though I believe that the Germans had military supiriority over the Allies at that point in the war there was no way that Sea Lion would have worked therefore I named it Sorens REally What If Thread.

I see.

Thank you Gnomey.

Now alright lets continue the discussion on the P-40 and the Hurricane shall we!

I dont know how to get it started again but I am sure some one will.

I like the Hurricane better. Although the P-40 was the more advanced fighter the Hurricane was just as effective as the P-40 in the roles it did, although less competent at taking on the LW fighters it was more than capable of dealing with the bombers (which it did with distinction in the Battle of Britain leaving the fighters to the Spits) and it could take large amounts of battle damage which could be easily repaired because of it's metal and fabric construction.

I will agree with you also. I still have not formed that much of an opinion but it leans toward the Hurricane atleast for historical reasons even though FBJ had a really good argument there for the P-40 with his charts and all. The P-40 did better than I thought it was capable of.

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

I will agree with you also. I still have not formed that much of an opinion but it leans toward the Hurricane atleast for historical reasons even though FBJ had a really good argument there for the P-40 with his charts and all. The P-40 did better than I thought it was capable of.

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Me too, but I have a soft spot for the Hurricane (and a slightly softer spot for the Spit )

Me too of the two I like the Hurricane better than the P-40.

Both of them were very tough and capable aircraft and were both under-rated. I'll take a pot shot at the Hurricane, not out of disrespect, just for argument's sake....

Pisis posted a great site the other day and started reading about MSgt Anabuki Satoru, a 51 kill Japanese ace who flew over Rangoon. He fought against both the Hurricane and the P-40 while in the same theater


APPENDIX I: Killboard of Anabuki Satoru.
Courtesy of Ooishi Naoaki

Kill # Date (*) Type of plane flown Type Comments (Place, etc)
1 22/12/1941 Ki-27 P-40 Lingayen/Philippines
2 - Ki-27 unk. unk.
3 09/02/1942 Ki-27 P-40 Bataan/Philippines
4 25/10/1942 Ki-43 P-40 Chinskia/India
5 10/12/1942 Ki-43 Hurricane Chittagong/India
- 15/12/1942 Ki-43 Hurricane 2C Chittagong/India, probable.
6 20/12/1942 Ki-43 Hurricane Magwe/Burma
7 20/12/1942 Ki-43 Blenheim Magwe/Burma, injured
8 23/12/1942 Ki-43 unk. Fenni/Burma?
9 23/12/1942 Ki-43 Blenheim Magwe/Burma, Night kill
10-12 24/12/1942 Ki-43 3 Hurricane 2Cs Magwe/Burma, one of them was P/O C.D. Fergusson (POW)
11 30/12/1942 Ki-43 Blenheim Meiktila/Burma
12 14/01/1943 Ki-43 Hurricane Inden/India?
13 16/01/1943 Ki-43 P-40 Yunnan Station/China
14 17/01/1943 Ki-43 Hurricane Fenni/Burma?
15-16 19/01/1943 Ki-43 2 Hurricanes Akyab/Burma
17 24/01/1943 Ki-43 Wellington Rangoon/Burma
18 26/01/1943 Ki-43 B-24 Mingaladong/Burma, first B-24 daylight kill
19 30/01/1943 Ki-43 B-25 Toungoo/Burma
20 28/02/1943 Ki-43 Blenheim Akyab/Burma
21 28/02/1943 Ki-43 Hurricane Akyab/Burma
- 02/03/1943 Ki-43 Hurricane Fenni/Burma?,
22 24/03/1943 Ki-43 B-25 Meiktila/Burma, probable
- 29/03/1943 Ki-43 Hurricane 2B Mondo/Burma, probable
23-24 30/03/1943 Ki-43 2 Hurricane 2Bs Mondo/Burma
25-27 31/03/1943 Ki-43 3 Hurricanes Pataga/India
28-29 04/04/1943 Ki-43 2 Hurricanes Dohazali/India
- 20/04/1943 Ki-43 Hurricane Imphal/India, probable
30 20/04/1943 Ki-43 P-36 Imphal/India
31-32 21/04/1943 Ki-43 2 P-36s Imphal/India, Maneouvre flap used
33 28/04/1943 Ki-43 P-40 Kunming/China
34 04/05/1943 Ki-43 Hurricane 2C Cox's Bazar/India
35-38 15/05/1943 Ki-43 4 P-40s Kunming/China
39-40 22/05/1943 Ki-43 2 Hurricane 2Cs Chittagong/India
41-42 29/05/1943 Ki-43 "Fubuki" 1 Hurricane,
1 Spitfire? Chittagong/India, "Fubuki" retired of service with 230 hours of flying
43-46 8/10/1943 Ki-43 "Kimikaze" 1 P-38, 3 B-24s Rangoon/Burma, heavily injured
47-50 unk. Ki-84 4 Hellcats Philippines. In separated sorties
51 unk. Ki-84 B-29 Honshu

I count 25 Hurricanes kills and 9 P-40 kills. Tactics? Pilot Skill? Better aircraft?

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anabuki/anabuki.htm

FLYBOYJ said:

Both of them were very tough and capable aircraft and were both under-rated. I'll take a pot shot at the Hurricane, not out of disrespect, just for argument's sake....

Prisis posted a great site the other day and started reading about MSgt Anabuki Satoru, a 51 kill Japanese ace who flew over Rangoon. He fought against both the Hurricane and the P-40 while in the same theater

I count 25 Hurricanes kills and 9 P-40 kills. Tactics? Pilot Skill? Better aircraft?

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anabuki/anabuki.htm

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In the PTO (by PTO I include all theaters against Japan a common mis conception is that it was all counted as 1 place, the AAF actualy divided it into 4 areas, Pacific, CBI, Far East and the Alutians) aitcraft were encountered in waves and groups so the encounters with the Hurri/P-40 may not have been equal.

wmaxt

wmaxt said:

FLYBOYJ said:

Both of them were very tough and capable aircraft and were both under-rated. I'll take a pot shot at the Hurricane, not out of disrespect, just for argument's sake....

Prisis posted a great site the other day and started reading about MSgt Anabuki Satoru, a 51 kill Japanese ace who flew over Rangoon. He fought against both the Hurricane and the P-40 while in the same theater

I count 25 Hurricanes kills and 9 P-40 kills. Tactics? Pilot Skill? Better aircraft?

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anabuki/anabuki.htm

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In the PTO (by PTO I include all theaters against Japan a common mis conception is that it was all counted as 1 place, the AAF actualy divided it into 4 areas, Pacific, CBI, Far East and the Alutians) aitcraft were encountered in waves and groups so the encounters with the Hurri/P-40 may not have been equal.

wmaxt

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Very True! This guy was also one of Japan's top dogs as well! I wonder if we have data about quantities of Hurricanes and P-40 over Rangoon, I think we know about those guys with the faces painted on their aircraft

FLYBOYJ said:

Very True! This guy was also one of Japan's top dogs as well! I wonder if we have data about quantities of Hurricanes and P-40 over Rangoon, I think we know about those guys with the faces painted on their aircraft

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Thats true to, luck and oportunity played a part to.

wmaxt

Humm good info there guys. Id agree here and say that it was probably skill and opurtunity that did those guys in, but then again is that not most air to air kills anyhow?

I see some people have been doing their homework! Great info!

I like the P-40 Warhawk better than the Hurricane.

Whats your reasons for it. I have not made up a true opinion yet but I am leaning toward the Hurricane.

I love the P40, mostly because it was an American fighter that served with distinction through most of the war (albiet in the fighter bomber role). I like the Hurricane because of the upgrade programs it went through. Personally, my favorite models of both aircraft are the P40N and the Hurricane IIC and IID. Imagine if an enemy fighter or bomber had been hit by one of those 40mm rounds. Can you say "OUCH."

Yeah that would suck!

I prefer the P-40, because it was the backbone of the RAAF in WWII and played a crucial role in the battle for Milne Bay which saw the first defeat of the Japanese on land.

Thou dust have a point!