P-51 Mustang Vs. Me 262

[FLYBOYJ]

The final was more than a 1/4 mile.

Of course it is - a 1/4 mile final is a reference point in the circuit where the pilot usually commits to either a landing, touch and go, or go around, other pilots would know what I'm talking about, apparently you didn't....

 

[Milosh]

Thanks for the correction.

What do you mean by 'a little power'?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Thanks for the correction.

What do you mean by 'a little power'?

From base to final the flight manual may recommend carrying 60 to 80% power. 70% to 90% (depending on the aircraft) would be recommended on a slow spooling jet engine if one is anticipating a go round. You'll start adding power at about 1/4 final. Depending on the aircraft you could carry more power and have the speed brakes out, but I do know some folks don't approve of this technique. You may land a little fast but that's the compromise for carrying power for a go-around.

 

[Milosh]

Thanks.

Do you know what power the Jumo 004B is putting out at 230kph.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Thanks.

Do you know what power the Jumo 004B is putting out at 230kph.

With gear and flaps down to maintain level flight, I would guess between 85% - 90%. With gear and flaps up I would say 70%.

I have a flight manual downloaded somewhere. If I remember correctly below 6000 rpm is where you have to be real careful about rapid throttle movements. I believe idle is about 3000 RPM, about 30%. ~ 40%.

 

[Cromwell]

Not Really - depends on what was to happen and when. On takeoff between wheels up and until you turn crosswind an engine loss usually meant trying to land straight ahead for a single engine aircraft. For a twin jet, it would depend on maintaining climb on one engine and a lot of variables play into that. If you could make to downwind or at least to a speed where gear and flaps are retracted and then have an engine failure, you could probably have some time to find a place to land should you experience an engine failure.

On landing, the key is staying ahead of the airplane and compensating for the 10 - 20 second spool up should you need to go around. The point here is a seasoned pilot should be able to put his aircraft close to the numbers when established on final. In the case of a 262 on a 1/4 mile final and being attacked from behind, the pilot better be carrying a little power and hope for the best....

I am still trying to see where we disagree - I think we are actually mostly in agreement here

 

[pbfoot]

a 1/4 mile final at 230 kph transalates into 10 secs til the end of the rwy might make it easier to understand

 

[Marc Yanoff]

I understand the P51 could outhandle the Me 262 and the Thunderbolt could outdive it, (the Me 262 did not have dive breaks.) But, they were three very different planes. The Me 262 was closer to the Me 410, it was designed as a Destroyer while the P 51 was an air superiority fighter and the Thunderbolt, expecially the light weitght M variant capable of 470MPH, was just deadly. The P 51 M and P 47 M could have chased down Arados but not quite the Me 262.

Had the war gone on it would have been interesting to see how the second generation Gloster Meteors. Vampires and the Lockheed P 80s would have faired against the second generation german jets including the Heinkel 162A-2. Also, B 29s over Berlin would have had the German High Command running, would we have dropped the A Bomb on Berlin in August of 45? I don't think so unless the Russians agreed.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I understand the P51 could outhandle the Me 262 and the Thunderbolt could outdive it, (the Me 262 did not have dive breaks.) But, they were three very different planes. The Me 262 was closer to the Me 410, it was designed as a Destroyer while the P 51 was an air superiority fighter and the Thunderbolt, expecially the light weitght M variant capable of 470MPH, was just deadly. The P 51 M and P 47 M could have chased down Arados but not quite the Me 262.

Had the war gone on it would have been interesting to see how the second generation Gloster Meteors. Vampires and the Lockheed P 80s would have faired against the second generation german jets including the Heinkel 162A-2. Also, B 29s over Berlin would have had the German High Command running, would we have dropped the A Bomb on Berlin in August of 45? I don't think so unless the Russians agreed.

You would have not seen B-29s over Germany. The B-32 was planned for the replacement of the B-17 and B-24.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Heinkel 162 was alo not a next generation Germany jet aircraft. It was a quick and easy way to built a "Volksjaeger".

If you want to talk about the next generation jet aircraft you will have to discuss the:

Focke-Wulf Ta 183
Horten Ho 229
Messerschmitt Me P.1101

Of course any discussion of that, will be purely "What If".

 

[Colin1]

I understand the P51 could outhandle the Me 262 and the Thunderbolt could outdive it, (the Me 262 did not have dive breaks.) But, they were three very different planes. The Me 262 was closer to the Me 410, it was designed as a destroyer while the P 51 was an air superiority fighter and the Thunderbolt, expecially the lightweight M variant capable of 470MPH, was just deadly. The P 51 M and P 47 M could have chased down Arados but not quite the Me 262.

Had the war gone on it would have been interesting to see how the second generation Gloster Meteors. Vampires and the Lockheed P 80s would have faired against the second generation german jets including the Heinkel 162A-2. Also, B 29s over Berlin would have had the German High Command running, would we have dropped the A Bomb on Berlin in August of 45? I don't think so unless the Russians agreed.

The Me262 didn't need to concern itself with handling the P-51
it could flat run at the bombers while offering minimal opportunity for interception by the Mustang escorts

Curious that you should select the P-51M as the aircraft to chase down Ar234s, only one was built, right at the end of the production run for the D model and it's sole differentiating feature over the D was the use of the V-1650-9A - basically a -9 with no water injection. It wasn't much better (if at all) than the -3 of the P-51B; at the stage of the war where the Ar234C might have entered service, the USAAF would more than likely have been pinning its hopes on the H model.

The Ar234C never flew, approx a dozen airframes were complete by war's end and less than half of those were fitted with powerplants but with 4 x BMW 003A units over the previous 2 x Junkers 004Bs, it's a fair assumption that the P-51H/P-47M driver would have his work cut out hauling him in.

The scenario of 'if the war had gone on' is always interesting to discuss but all roads lead to eventual German destruction; technical marvel was no match for the massive Allied airforces facing them. Luftwaffe jets might (might) have had the edge over their Allied counterparts in the beginning but Germany had nowhere from which to draw the specialised materials needed for jet turbine construction; if it transpired that their second-generation designs were slightly more advanced than the Allies, they would also have been significantly more unreliable.

 

[Cromwell]

The scenario of 'if the war had gone on' is always interesting to discuss but all roads lead to eventual German destruction; technical marvel was no match for the massive Allied airforces facing them.

Luftwaffe jets might (might) have had the edge over their Allied counterparts in the beginning but Germany had nowhere from which to draw the specialised materials needed for jet turbine construction; if it transpired that their second-generation designs were slightly more advanced than the Allies, they would also have been significantly more unreliable.

Its true how many wars are won or lost due to a. logistics and b. deployment and c. reliability / serviceability

It must be said that the US of A was pretty good at logistics, and also the Brits -

- And the fact that we had so much of everything and the Reich was lacking so much of everything does indeed point to an Allied victory

One Point : I often wonder why the Millions of Slave Workers in Europe did not rebel against the Germans - and why the Allies did not consider giving them weapons and the will to fight back .........

 

[Cromwell]

You would have not seen B-29s over Germany. The B-32 was planned for the replacement of the B-17 and B-24.

Well I guess that could be true - but then that is also conjecture is it not ?

Perhaps they would have brought the B50 in a bit more quickly, and I think that aircraft would have made a big difference .......

I am not sure the Ruskies would have especially objected to the A Bomb, although I do believe one of the reasons for dropping it on Japan was to blunt the USSR in its ambitions in that direction (i.e. heading to-wards the Japanese homeland)


( - and even if they had objected, would that have stopped the US from dropping it ?)

 

[Erich]

Gents the He 162 was a sort range limitation the German had not wanted to continue even in the fall of 45 had the war expanded in any future length of time, we would of seen swept back winged jets from FW and a sleeker 262 in the air

no matter to topic at hand the 262 did not stand a chance in air combat with the P-51D or K a spoken in an earlier reference(s)

 

[timshatz]

Gents the He 162 was a sort range limitation the German had not wanted to continue even in the fall of 45 had the war expanded in any future length of time, we would of seen swept back winged jets from FW and a sleeker 262 in the air

no matter to topic at hand the 262 did not stand a chance in air combat with the P-51D or K a spoken in an earlier reference(s)

Agreed. After the first turn, the 262 was losing energy, getting closer and closer to the sweet spot of the 51. Turning and burning is not what it was made for. Hit and run.

In a dogfight, the 51 had it all over the 262 and both pilots should've known it.

Matter of fact, any late war piston fighter had it all over the 262 in a dogfight. Why limit it to the 51. Laggs, Spits, Typhoons, Tempests, could all take the 262 on in a turning fight and end up on top.

 

[HOUSTON]

I voted for P-51 MUSTANG becasue I thought it did better in combat than ME 262 but I am probably wrong, and also because I like it ...

 

[drgondog]

it probably did shoot more Me 262s down than it lost (P-51) by a significant margin - but the 262 had no reaL ability to escape in clear weather once past the halfway point on fuel.

 

[Erich]

correcto my friend at least 100 in my estimation though some may be in the count as P-47's. interesting this is actually a project I have been working on for some years. we all must understand the prime directive for the 262 fighter was to engage the US heavy bomber formations and then secondary the Allied escorts and if they were in the way before engaging the US bombers then yes would be shot down if possible to "clear and road" for the other 262's attacking from the rear.

 

[Njaco]

I agree with you Erich as I was gonna say tactics for both machines are a little different - P-51 was pure fighter-to-fighter while the 262 was after the bombers.

 

[jrw1238]

I all boils down to the tactics used by the pilots of the individual aircraft. If the 262 pilot attempted to dogfight the P-51 my money would be on the Mustang, however if the 262 pilot chooses to use his speed and climb for hit and run then I would go with the 262. The tactics would be similar to what we used against the Japanese fighters in the Pacific.