P-51D "Creamer's Dream"

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by al49, Nov 15, 2015.

  1. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

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    Hi everybody,
    I just ordered Tamiya 1:32 kit for P-51D and I would like to replicate the above subject that belonged to 332nd AAFFG based in Ramitelli, Italy in 1945 and I will appreciate if someone could help me understanding a few points.

    13270u1_0.jpg

    - Was the above belonging to the "early" or the "Late" production (Block 20 onwards)? If I understood well, there were a number of differences in seat, instrument panel, gun sight etc.

    - Which pattern on tyres?

    - Which propeller?

    Additionally, if anybody can share pictures on that subject, will be very much welcome.

    Many thanks in advance
    Alberto
     
  2. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    Unless you have a serial number of the ship, that photograph doesn't tell you about the model based on the above view.
     
  3. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

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    Very good answer, many thanks.
    Alberto
     
  4. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

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    Found on the net a picture where the propeller of a sister plane can be seen
    1dfc9671b3a72489aded6794c8593f18.jpg
    Seems to me to be an Hamilton Standard with cuffed blades, is it correct?
    Many thanks
    Alberto
     
  5. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    It is a Hamilton-Standard if you believe the decal on the prop, meaning this is a P-51D made in Inglewood, CA (not a K made in Dallas, TX). I have never seen the dash number for Creamer's Dream, but have heard it was an "early P-51D" more than once. Can't be all THAT early because it has the dorsal fin. The really early ones didn't. But "early" probably does mean a V-1650-3 engine. That's about all I can tell.
     
  6. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

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    That's very good, many thanks.
    Alberto
     
  7. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    #7 drgondog, Nov 16, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2015
    Here is a comment when googling on Creamer's Dream
    More info...

    Submitted by Anonymous Tipster on Wed, 04/16/2008 - 1:38pm.


    "Lt. Charles White (301st FS, 332nd FG, Tuskegee Airmen) was one of the first 332nd fighter group pilots to fly a P-51D. After joining the group as a replacement pilot, he had received a war-weary P-51C. White's complaints about its unreliability led his commanding officer to allocate this early P-51D directly to Lt. White. So inspired by the allocation White painted a nude on both sides of the new fighter's fuselage, with a rear view to port and front view to starboard."

    If true it is more likely than not that it is a -5-NA.

    If so, the following can be true:
    1. From 44-13253 through 44-13902 all P-51D-5-NA were delivered to AAF withouth to Dorsal Fin Filet and ALL subsequent P-51D's were delivered with the DFF installed at the factory (~ July 1944 and beyond).
    2. All P-51Ds and B/C's in combat ops had the DFF kits (104-25001 for B/C and 109-25001 for the D/K) installed in the field.
    3. All P-51Ds through the -25 (both NA and NT) had the Hamilton Standard (cuffed) prop, ALL P-51K's delivered from Dallas had the Aero Products prop (un cuffed) but many K props were replaced with HamStandard props due to vibration issues.

    I expanded the pic to see if I could read the data block but could not make out the serial number. It did not seem like a pic of a 'new' P-51D as the data block was pretty worn.
     
  8. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    Greg - the factory blocks to receive the 1650-7 engine to replace -3 were:

    P-51B-10-NA 43-7113 (#801 of NA-104) and all subsequent P-51B and D-NA's
    P-51C-5-NT 42-103379 (#401 of NA-103) and all subsequent P-51C and P-51D/K NT's

    In the field they were often swapped during engine overhaul and changes.

    The above is also the Effectivity for the first NAA Factory installed 85 gallon fuselage tanks at Inglewood and Dallas.

    The effectivity for the factory installed DFF was:

    P-51D-5-NA 44-13902 accepted 6/12/44
    P-51C-10-NT 44-11753 accepted 7/9/44

    Something confusing in the Creamer narrative I posted above could put a totally new question on the table. He apparently was complaining about a War Weary P-51C. The first WW (officially declared WW) that I can find for either the 4th FG or 355th FG was November, 1944 - both with 700+ hours. Both of those groups were flying the respective WW P-51B/C's for more than 4 months earlier than the 332nd was even operational at the end of June. Even if Creamer inherited a P-51C from another group (entirely possible) then being 'one of the first' to receive a new D means July 1944 and the C could not be WW at that time. That would make it for sure a P-51D-5-NA as there were no D-10s in ETO/MTO before August.
     
  9. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    I KNEW you'd have more info on it. I was going to hazard that it was probably a -15 or earlier, but I didn't really have enough to go on. You are much more versed in P-51 lore than I am.

    When I turn a wrench on one, I usually don't know the dash number unless I happen to notice the data plate. If you are in a wing or center fuselage, you don't usually notice. Mostly when I get to wrench on one, it is some emergency or a friend who needs a specific hand with a particular task.

    I've ridden in "Lady Alice" and can say it's a very beautiful P-51D, but cannot tell you the dash number. Now that I'm interested, I'll find out the dash number next weekend. I'm usually more interested in talking to Ken, the owner.
     
  10. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    Lady Alice is a P-51D-30-NT 45-11633 one of the very last Mustangs ever built by NAA.
     
  11. grampi

    grampi Member

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    Speaking of building Mustang kits, I love building them myself, and 1:32 is my preferred scale (they are much easier to detail than the smaller scales). I also love admiring them when I'm done because the Mustang is such a beautiful airplane. I'm currently building a re-issue of the old Monogram Phantom Mustang re-released by Revell. While not as accurate or detailed as the Tamiya kits, this kit is nice because of all of the working features....motorized retractable landing gear and prop, and dropping bombs make this kit very unique. I would also like to build the 1:32 Tamiya Mustang if I can find the kit with "metalized" outer surfaces. I don't know if this particular kit is still produced or not, but I seem to be having a hard time finding one. They are rather expensive (over $200), but they are well worth it if you like lots of detail...and in my opinion, the Tamiya kits are the best out there...
     
  12. GregP

    GregP Well-Known Member

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    And it is kept immaculately by Wags. There isn't a bug on it that doesn't get removed right after flight.

    And Ken always has time to talk with someone ... unless he's going flying, that is.
     
  13. tourist

    tourist New Member

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    Hi Alberto, Creamer's Dream was a P-51D-15-NA, so it's a "middle" production plane.
    The propeller should be the standard cuffed HS prop.
    I believe it had the diamond tread pattern but it is extremely hard to tell from the pictures I have, so I cannot be 100% sure.
    The wire antenna can be seen which means the range receiver (parts D7 D10) was not removed from the plane.
    With the D-15 there is a high likelihood that the seat was the Shick-Johnson (D32, D38, D39, A3) but again without a picture one cannot be sure.
    The drop tanks are the 110 gal. type (only included in Tamiya's "Pacific Theater" boxing).
    For the instrument panel use parts D-31 D49.
    The gunsight is the N-9 (L2 L3).
    There is no APS-13 on this plane so use part D-2 instead of D-1.
    Do not use parts B-1 and D-53 behind the headrest.
    Other than that follow the instructions for version "B", it will give you the closest thing to a D-15 you can have out of the box.
    For more info you may find helpful here's what I wrote when the Tamiya kit came out:
    http://ww2aircraft.net/forum/model-kit-reviews/tamiyas-1-32-51d-box-review-29854.html
     
  14. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    You say P-51D-15, what was the serial number?
     
  15. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

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    #15 al49, Dec 2, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2015
    Many thanks tourist for the very detailed information.
    Do you have a drawing of the 110 gal. drop tank? May be I can try to make them if they aren't available as aftermarket items.
    Alberto
     
  16. tourist

    tourist New Member

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    I don't know the serial number and it doesn't matter.
    There are clues on the few "Creamer's Dream" pictures that identify it as a P-51D-15-NA.
    This is not surprising as most of the 332nd FG P-51D's were D-15's.

    Alberto, I believe Lone Star Models sells resin 1/32 110gal. tanks.
     
  17. al49

    al49 Well-Known Member

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  18. drgondog

    drgondog Well-Known Member

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    Not in the picture above, nor is there any reference I can find to support your statements above.
    There is only one external feature that is discernible to the practiced eye that differentiates a P-51D-15 from a P-51D-10 and I already mentioned it. Having said that - all succeeding blocks also had that feature.

    So what did You note on 'other' photos absent serial number that lead you to conclude P-51D-15? And BTW the 332nd were supplied with P-51B/C as well as P-51D-5-NA, -10-NA, -15-NA, -20-NA as well as Dallas NT's. Had they Just received (mostly) -15's they would not have arrived in numbers in MTO and 332nd until approximately late November, 1944.

    What is your source for that claim?
     
  19. tourist

    tourist New Member

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    Alberto, go to page two of my 2011 kit review, I've added more photos of the curved DFF.
    It does indeed apply to "Creamer's Dream".
     
  20. tourist

    tourist New Member

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    All the other photos of Creamer's Dream I have are taken at the same angle as the one posted in this thread but fortunately the crew moves around and some important features become visible.
    The gun camera opening is indeed square placing the plane at D-15 and subsequent.
    The fuel and pressure lines for the drop tanks have the early configuration, meaning it is not a D-25 or a D-30.
    We are now left with D-15 and D-20 as possibilities.
    The early canopy release handle makes it a D-15 but since the canopy could have been switched I looked at the oil tank filler door visible on one of the pictures, it is the early style confirming the D-15 block.
    The absence of the hydraulic tank door in front of the windscreen or the fuel strainer door on the rear lower cowl are the last proof needed.
    Creamer's Dream was a P-51D-15-NA.

    The closest Dallas build Mustang to a P-51D-15 would be a P-51K-10 and I am not aware of any of them being in the 332nd FG in 1945.

    I know there were other P-51D production blocks in the 332nd FG but at the time the photos were taken (March 1945) pictures show the majority of their P-51D's were D-15's.
    It's not very scientific bu it provides a context.
     
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