P-51D "Mustang" vs. Fw-190 "Dora"

mike526mp · Oct 29, 2009

Attacking Bombers with Fighter Escort
With American fighter aircraft now providing round trip protection for the bomber formations, German interception tactics were once again modified.

Recalling prior experiences with the Royal Air Force during the Battle of Britain, Luftwaffe fighters were deployed in "Big Wings" to engage the enemy en masse. Modified Fw -190's with additional frontal and cockpit armor joined standard Bf-109's in formations of up to 100 aircraft, referred to as Sturmgruppen. The lighter, more agile Bf-109's would occupy the American escorts as waves of Fw-190's, in tightly spaced vee's of a dozen or more, assaulted the bombers.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 29, 2009

mike526mp said:
Why do you discount what our pilots had to say? As for a P-51 only having range, I doubt any FW-190 pilot would say the same thing Bud Anderson would say about the ME110 and 410.

C.E. "Bud" Anderson

2. Which aircraft, the ME109 or the FW190 was the most formidable in combat?
In aerial combat it did not matter to me which type of enemy fighter I encountered. I felt that the Mustang could out perform both the ME109 and the FW190 and treated them pretty much the same. The FW190 had an air cooled radial engine and could probably take a little more damage than the liquid cooled ME109. I never encountered any of the twin engine fighters such as the ME110 ME 410 but it appeared to me that the guy that got there first shot down the most of them.

this has nothing to do with who made it, the question I am answering is which is the best fighter.

Who discredited anything that US pilots said? No one, but you chose not use anything but allied reports and accounts.

mike526mp · Oct 29, 2009

No colin you are ignorant, you no nothing, just a bag of wind with no experience and no common sense, but a big ego and chip on your shoulder. you probablyhave no life, no friends. grow up little boy, oh, by the way, I also know this is your web site, I could see from the demerit you gave me, how childish, ydo ou also go by DerAdlerIstGelandet?

mike526mp · Oct 29, 2009

the someone else is you colin!

mike526mp · Oct 29, 2009

i am done posting colin, i do wish you well, honestly

Colin1 · Oct 29, 2009

mike526mp said:
No colin you are ignorant, you no nothing, just a bag of wind with no experience and no common sense, but a big ego and chip on your shoulder. you probablyhave no life, no friends. grow up little boy, oh, by the way, I also know this is your web site, I could see from the demerit you gave me, how childish, ydo ou also go by DerAdlerIstGelandet?

Don't let the door catch your ass on the way out...

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 29, 2009

mike526mp said:
And then you come to the discussion with "What I did not like is the attitude that you brought into the discussion, as well as making claims that are not true."

Actually I said that. Not Colin...

mike526mp said:
Take a P-51, a FW-190 of the same era, 2 equal pilots, equal amount of fuel (duration), any altitude (and tested at all altitudes), both see each other, object is to destroy the other, same altitude, both at high speed, neither at a tactical advantage, I would bet the P-51 wins 90-100 out of 100.

It is not that simple. You are again excluding to many factors. This is not the microsoft simulator video game here...

mike526 said:
Just your condescending attitude and your "non superficial understanding of that aspect of the air battle."
You sure convinced me Colin! You win Ace!

So who are you talking to here? Me or Colin...

mike526mp said:
No colin you are ignorant, you no nothing, just a bag of wind with no experience and no common sense, but a big ego and chip on your shoulder. you probablyhave no life, no friends. grow up little boy, oh, by the way, I also know this is your web site, I could see from the demerit you gave me, how childish, ydo ou also go by DerAdlerIstGelandet?

Actually me and Colin are two different people.

I am however a moderator here.

This is rather funny. You think we are the same people!

Now having said that:

1. You know nothing about my experience or knowledge.
2. I have no ego or chip on my shoulder.
3. I share quite a good life with my friends and wife, funny you should bring that into the argument? Very childish I say.
4. I am a grown ass man, not a lil boy.
5. I do not own this site, I just happen to be a moderator in it.
6. I like to study these aircraft from many different points of view and aspects, not just those that prove that my point. You should try it sometime.
7. I am not Colin!

Colin1 · Oct 29, 2009

mike526mp said:
the someone else is you colin!

did the voices tell you to say that?

Colin1 · Oct 29, 2009

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Actually me and Colin are two different people.

I am however a moderator here

...and I'm the new site owner

FLYBOYJ · Oct 29, 2009

mike526mp said:
With the hazards associated with attacking the enemy from the tail position firmly in mind, Luftwaffe pilots logically shifted their focus to the lesser defended front of the formation. Upon interception, fighters would loiter outside of gunnery range, either abeam or behind, to estimate the speed and altitude of the bomber stream.

The German would then accelerate his aircraft to a point two miles ahead of the enemy and 1000 yards above before turning back towards his foe. With closing speeds approaching 500 mph, there was but a few scant seconds to line up a shot, squeeze off a short burst and break away to avoid a collision. A successful frontal attack required superior flying ability, skilled marksmanship and an iron will on the part of the Luftwaffe pilot.

Aside from the benefit of confronting fewer guns, the nose approach afforded an opportunity to fire directly in the bomber cockpits. A few well placed cannon rounds could at least disable, if not kill, an American flight crew. Later versions of both the B-17 and B-24 featured powered nose turrets to counter this threat.

The tail attack was not totally abandoned. Small numbers of less maneuverable, more rugged twin-engined aircraft such as the Messerschmitt Bf-110 and Junkers Ju-88 were fitted with a 37, 50 or even 75 mm cannon to permit engagement from outside the range of the heavy bombers tail guns. A single round from these weapons was capable of downing any Allied bomber. The appearance of Allied escort fighters later in the campaign chased these plodding aircraft from the skies.

Was that from an Osprey book or the back label of the latest flight sim game?

mike526mp · Oct 29, 2009

put away your flight sim flyboy (colin), it was

Luftwaffe Day Interception Tactics
German Fighter Pilot Methods for Attacking USAAF Strategic Bombers
by Andrew C. Rappold

but with your keen understanding of air warfare, i am sure you knew that

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 29, 2009

This is really getting funny!

Now you think that FlyboyJ, Colin1 and DerAdlerIstGelandet are the same people?

mike526mp · Oct 29, 2009

something it did say, and notice the lighter more agile me-109?

Recalling prior experiences with the Royal Air Force during the Battle of Britain, Luftwaffe fighters were deployed in "Big Wings" to engage the enemy en masse. Modified Fw -190's with additional frontal and cockpit armor joined standard Bf-109's in formations of up to 100 aircraft, referred to as Sturmgruppen. The lighter, more agile Bf-109's would occupy the American escorts as waves of Fw-190's, in tightly spaced vee's of a dozen or more, assaulted the bombers.

Colin1 · Oct 29, 2009

mike526mp said:
put away your flight sim flyboy (colin), it was

Luftwaffe Day Interception Tactics
German Fighter Pilot Methods for Attacking USAAF Strategic Bombers
by Andrew C. Rappold

but with your keen understanding of air warfare, i am sure you knew that

OK
so I'm DerAdlerIstGelandert AND FlyboyJ now? Oh, and the site owner of course...
Boy I get around - and you're a fruit-loop.

Did you say you flew airliners? Full of people?

mike526mp · Oct 29, 2009

heck for all i know your all holding hands

drgondog · Oct 29, 2009

mike526mp said:
Let me try to comprehend this, please type slow for me. You say it is pointless the views of Bud Anderson and other pilots who actually participated in the combat, the air combat between the 2 aircraft we are discussing, at the time it happened, in the aircraft of the era?

Mike - Colin didn't say that.

Do you want to drag in the LW pilot view who just shot down a Mustang in either a Me 109 or Fw 190 or Fw 190D and pose that as an example of superiority? My Father shot down more German Fighters in the time he was in combat ops than Anderson did in the same period (June 6 to EOW) - does that make him superior? No. But he flew the Me 109G and the Fw 190A and the Fw 190D after the war and considered them very good airplanes.

And Colin, you state, "I think your conclusions are superficial, based on your superficial understanding of that aspect of the air battle." Then I guess you are saying Bud Anderson and other pilots also had a superficial understanding of air battle, but you somehow know it all?

Mike - he said Your conclusions were superficial - not Anderson's

Let me make it simple for you Colin, for your "lack of comprehension". Take a P-51, a FW-190 of the same era, 2 equal pilots, equal amount of fuel (duration), any altitude (and tested at all altitudes), both see each other, object is to destroy the other, same altitude, both at high speed, neither at a tactical advantage, I would bet the P-51 wins 90-100 out of 100.

Facts not entered into evidence.

By the time the Mustang hit the ETO (8th and 9th AF) there probably weren't 100 Fw 190 pilots in the West that had comparable or better skills than the above average Mustang pilot of the 354th, 355th, 4th, 357th or 352nd FG's. BTW that is speculation, not fact, on my part but the s/e fighter strength and pilots available to LuftFlotte 3 and Reich pretty much peaked out in early to mid 1944 at 600+ pilots and up to 1000 per month were getting killed in Feb-May, 1944.

I think it is clear what you never liked is my conclusion. You have no facts other than early reports and figures, nothing of any value after 1943. Just your condescending attitude and your "non superficial understanding of that aspect of the air battle."
You sure convinced me Colin! You win Ace!

It is interesting to note, at least to me, that more ETO fighter pilots respected the Fw 190 at middle to low altitudes than the 109 and in the 8th AF approximately 2500 Me 109s were credited in contrast to the 1900+ Fw 190 - and remember a lot of the 190s that went down air to air were the 190A-8's which were at a huge disadvantage at 25,000 feet. Only two Mustang groups were credited with more Fws than Me 109s - the 339th and 364th and those by small margins.

FLYBOYJ · Oct 29, 2009

mike526mp said:
put away your flight sim flyboy (colin), it was

Luftwaffe Day Interception Tactics
German Fighter Pilot Methods for Attacking USAAF Strategic Bombers
by Andrew C. Rappold

but with your keen understanding of air warfare, i am sure you knew that

I've served in the military and have flown military aircraft (as a civilian). You're spouting off things I've learned 40 years ago. Understand that you are not talking to a bunch of pudknockers and we've probably forgotten more than you could ever read. And I speak more for some of our members than I do myself.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 29, 2009

I would not argue with Bill on this topic. In my opinion is the one with most knowledge. Anytime himself or Erich start talking, I just shut up and listen...

drgondog · Oct 29, 2009

guys - you may have pulled the trigger a little too soon - it really was getting pretty funny! You can't watch monkeys screw for a qurater and this was for free! Er, quarter.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 29, 2009

He was not banned...

P-51D "Mustang" vs. Fw-190 "Dora"

American luck, or German engineering art?

North American Aviation Inc. P-51D "Mustang"

Focke-Wulf Flugzeugbau AG. Fw-190D-9 "Dora-Neun"

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