pathchampion
Recruit
- 6
- Jul 6, 2006
Which one was the best in airial combat?, one on one, don't care for the number ratio 
personaly I'll vote for the Focke-Wulf
personaly I'll vote for the Focke-Wulf
P-51D "Mustang" vs. Fw-190 "Dora"
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Lucky13
Forum Mascot
How does their engines compare to each other?
The 'luck' of the laminar wing was repeatedly copied for a long time, by many aircraft producers.
Wing Design - CONVENTIONAL AIRFOILS and LAMINAR FLOW AIRFOILS
If the LW had had the Mustang during the BoB, they would have won.
Instead of a few lousy minutes over the bomber targets, they could have spent many hours there.
and comparing the Spit with a similarly horse powered engine the Mustang was faster...but less maneuverable, except at high speed..
Very "unlucky" for the LW, they lost the BoB..for the lack of a Mustang type aircraft.. unlucky indeed.. this bad luck continued for them
Wing Design - CONVENTIONAL AIRFOILS and LAMINAR FLOW AIRFOILS
If the LW had had the Mustang during the BoB, they would have won.
Instead of a few lousy minutes over the bomber targets, they could have spent many hours there.
and comparing the Spit with a similarly horse powered engine the Mustang was faster...but less maneuverable, except at high speed..
Very "unlucky" for the LW, they lost the BoB..for the lack of a Mustang type aircraft.. unlucky indeed.. this bad luck continued for them
DonL
Banned
Sorry Jackson,
it wasn't the lack of a Mustang aircraft type!
A drop Tank had done wonders for the ME 109 in the BOB!
Also we had a wonderful in my opinion one of the best aircrafts with the right Engine (two DB 601) since 1937 the FW 187! It was first a single seat heavy Fighter and was then built as two seat "Zerstörer"!
This plane was no prototype, it was fully developed in 1939!
With this plane in service instead of the ME 110, the LW had done a much better performance!
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/fw187.html
Focke-Wulf Fw 187 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This sources shows the FW 187 with with two Jumo 210 engines, but the real engine was a DB 600 from the ME110!
There were 3 or 4 aircraft with the DB engines and a top speed of 635 km/h!
it wasn't the lack of a Mustang aircraft type!
A drop Tank had done wonders for the ME 109 in the BOB!
Also we had a wonderful in my opinion one of the best aircrafts with the right Engine (two DB 601) since 1937 the FW 187! It was first a single seat heavy Fighter and was then built as two seat "Zerstörer"!
This plane was no prototype, it was fully developed in 1939!
With this plane in service instead of the ME 110, the LW had done a much better performance!
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/fw187.html
Focke-Wulf Fw 187 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This sources shows the FW 187 with with two Jumo 210 engines, but the real engine was a DB 600 from the ME110!
There were 3 or 4 aircraft with the DB engines and a top speed of 635 km/h!
evangilder
"Shooter"
Why are you bringing the 187 into a discussion about the 190 versus the P-51? Let's keep this on topic.
DonL
Banned
sorry for the OT,
but it was direct answer for Jacksons post.
but it was direct answer for Jacksons post.
not to get off topic, but the issue of German use of drop tanks would be a good separate thread.. another one of the many questions I have about the LW, like not using the Ta152 as a high altitude interceptor..
Galland's opinion of Goering and Hitler as far as strategists is repeatedly proved true..
BTW there were '109 drop tanks
Galland's opinion of Goering and Hitler as far as strategists is repeatedly proved true..
BTW there were '109 drop tanks
Erich
the old Sage
martin bowman is presenting his thoughts in P-51 vs the Fw 190 in a new Osprey title this upcoming fall..............it should be crap !
maybe we should change the title to Dora 9 vs RCAF and RAF Spits and Tempests as the first Dora and till wars end were pitted against these Allied tuypes continually. III./JG 54 and JG 26.
Dora 's of JG 2 fought them as well as US types, JG 6 vs the US, JG 301 US and Soviet, JG 51 vs Soviet, JG 4 vs Soviet, JG 3 vs Soviet. JG 300 what there were of them and in fact not sure if they ever flew ops in the new bird
~ ( ? ) ~ and jackson go get a copy of W. Reschkes JG 301/302 from schiffer pubs it will explain the many diversions that took place for the TA 152H. Schiifers pub by Dietmar is so-so as it has gaps but what book hasn't. you and the other may just find out why the Ta did not get it fullfillment at high altitude within 2 years - Geschwader stab had one chance to combat Mustangs and I mean only one the other ops were against the Soviets, and this can be balmed on ground control hierarchy strongly
maybe we should change the title to Dora 9 vs RCAF and RAF Spits and Tempests as the first Dora and till wars end were pitted against these Allied tuypes continually. III./JG 54 and JG 26.
Dora 's of JG 2 fought them as well as US types, JG 6 vs the US, JG 301 US and Soviet, JG 51 vs Soviet, JG 4 vs Soviet, JG 3 vs Soviet. JG 300 what there were of them and in fact not sure if they ever flew ops in the new bird
~ ( ? ) ~ and jackson go get a copy of W. Reschkes JG 301/302 from schiffer pubs it will explain the many diversions that took place for the TA 152H. Schiifers pub by Dietmar is so-so as it has gaps but what book hasn't. you and the other may just find out why the Ta did not get it fullfillment at high altitude within 2 years - Geschwader stab had one chance to combat Mustangs and I mean only one the other ops were against the Soviets, and this can be balmed on ground control hierarchy strongly
2 years, I thought the aircraft did not enter service until late '44
My opinion on the Dora v Mustang
low - even
mid - Dora
high - Mustang
This must be reconciled with the fact that the Dora optimized for bomber interception with the 20 mm wing guns , was not the same Dora as optimized for high altitude- compare the clipped wing with the long winged Spit
Weren't some Doras produced without the 20 mm wing guns, added fuel tanks and a single fuselage mounted (or wing root? ) 20 mm with more rounds (480) available..
Thus one of the praises of the FW190- (including the F/G) its overall utility, maybe second best only to the P47 as a Jabo and still able to twirl with a Mk IX..
My opinion on the Dora v Mustang
low - even
mid - Dora
high - Mustang
This must be reconciled with the fact that the Dora optimized for bomber interception with the 20 mm wing guns , was not the same Dora as optimized for high altitude- compare the clipped wing with the long winged Spit
Weren't some Doras produced without the 20 mm wing guns, added fuel tanks and a single fuselage mounted (or wing root? ) 20 mm with more rounds (480) available..
Thus one of the praises of the FW190- (including the F/G) its overall utility, maybe second best only to the P47 as a Jabo and still able to twirl with a Mk IX..
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
I think that I'd go with the D-9. Another thing regarding the engines folks, how would an engine change affect the machines? Merlin in the D-9 and the Junkers Jumo 213A-1 in the Mustang....what would the difference be?
Cheers by the way Soren.
Cheers by the way Soren.
Erich
the old Sage
jackson I re-read my above post.............man the drugs I am taking really psyche my head.
the first Dora missions were by III./JG 54 in September of 44 with regard to try and provide high cover for Nowotny's bungling Me 262 unit.
The Ta 152H-0 was first used in III./JG 301 in late January of 45.
there were several variants of Dora, the 9, the 11 and 12 with different armaments.
just to be different I am voting the P-51D powerhouse over the Dora 9 in case of maneuverability, speed..............
the first Dora missions were by III./JG 54 in September of 44 with regard to try and provide high cover for Nowotny's bungling Me 262 unit.
The Ta 152H-0 was first used in III./JG 301 in late January of 45.
there were several variants of Dora, the 9, the 11 and 12 with different armaments.
just to be different I am voting the P-51D powerhouse over the Dora 9 in case of maneuverability, speed..............
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Isn't the all famous D-13 Yellow 10 at Champlin Fighter Aces Museum a "pick and mix"? I remember reading somewhere that it's not a real D-13, but something put together by different parts shortly after the war. Or is it just another myth?
DonL
Banned
I'm with Jackson,
low - even
mid - Dora
high - Mustang
but I think it all depends on the Engine!
If the D9 have had the Jumo 213 E with the three-speed two-stage supercharger, the aircraft would be an equal performer at high altitude.
low - even
mid - Dora
high - Mustang
but I think it all depends on the Engine!
If the D9 have had the Jumo 213 E with the three-speed two-stage supercharger, the aircraft would be an equal performer at high altitude.
Erich
the old Sage
Jan yes you are right and I did not include that. Gelbe 10 was flown in a mock duel at wars end with an RAF ? , rats cannot remember. I have been all over that great looking hot rod when it was based in the Champlin Museum in southern Arizona, even almost getting into the open cockpit my wife and two kids were laughing their heads off as I was acting like a little kid and no-one was in the museum so naturally I was .............. ~ 
and yes it is a D-13 through and through, the camo had been repainted in a bogus config and then friend Jerry Crandall went down and continued his long work on getting the camo correct. Yellow 10 is covered in a fine soft-back book from Eagle-editions and I think the booklet is OOP
and yes it is a D-13 through and through, the camo had been repainted in a bogus config and then friend Jerry Crandall went down and continued his long work on getting the camo correct. Yellow 10 is covered in a fine soft-back book from Eagle-editions and I think the booklet is OOP
DonL
Banned
@ Erich
How many D-13 were built? In some books they talk about only two Prototyps!
Is this crap?
How many D-13 were built? In some books they talk about only two Prototyps!
Is this crap?
Erich
the old Sage
I know of yellow 10 only but
.......... well Eagle editions will answer that in his volume 2 of the Dora this Christmas or early next year. Their volume 1 will cover the Dora 9 and the units that flew them - much on my cousins JG 301 so I am looking forward to that; should be ready and I am only guessing ........... August/September 07.
go to : Luftwaffe Military Aviation Books World War 2 Aviation History Book
click the P-47 and find what's new and go to the Fw 190D pages covering the insides of both volumes. these will be a must have. not sure of the technical aspects on the craft and variants that could be used to debate the Dora vs the Mustang but will be needed reading.
E ~
.......... well Eagle editions will answer that in his volume 2 of the Dora this Christmas or early next year. Their volume 1 will cover the Dora 9 and the units that flew them - much on my cousins JG 301 so I am looking forward to that; should be ready and I am only guessing ........... August/September 07.
go to : Luftwaffe Military Aviation Books World War 2 Aviation History Book
click the P-47 and find what's new and go to the Fw 190D pages covering the insides of both volumes. these will be a must have. not sure of the technical aspects on the craft and variants that could be used to debate the Dora vs the Mustang but will be needed reading.
E ~
DonL
Banned
thank you very much
