P-51D "Mustang" vs. Fw-190 "Dora"

[Erich]

Don the useage of my notes on the MW 50 injection goes way back for years to the 10th staffel of Jg 300 flying Moskito-jagd against the LSNF of the RAF bombing Berlin in the summer-November 1944. The Bf 109G-6/AS had MW 50 as standard and they used the injection system above 30,000 feet. so did the high flying protection staffels in JG 1, 11 and in I./JG 3 as I know ace Horst Petzschler who used it successfully to take on the P-51B's in April and May of 1944 over Normandie.

another note Don the Fw 190D-9 did not have GM-1 only MW 50 from my notes

 

[DonL]

Yes Erich that's right!

The DB 605 has an other supercharger then the Jumo 213 and so on an other (" Volldruckhöhe") best outputperformance! To my knowledge the best outputperformance for a DB 605 engine was at 7500-8000 meters!

That is something about 25000-26000 feet! That isn't 30000 feet but near on it!

Edit: From my Notes the D9 had a tank in the Wing for GM1! But my Note isn't the best one!

 

[Erich]

yes and the Bf 109G-6/AS pilots seemed to comment that the P-51 was always above them, combats taking place as you mentioned at B-17 heights of 25-28,000 feet normally but certainly lower and down to deck level. But at night 10. N/JG 300 always were above the unsuspecting Mosquito bombers so that tells me they could fly 30,000 and above

pulled out another note that the Fw 190D-9 MW 50 injection could last up to 40 minutes in length

 

[DonL]

Yes. my note says the same.

But you can only perform 10 min with the MW 50 than you must break for 5 minutes to get back to the MW 50.

That's from my notes!

 

[Lucky13]

Too bad that the Jumo 222 was a failure then....

 

[DonL]

@ Lucky

Why?

The Jumo 213 E with the three-speed two-stage supercharger was an excellent Engine! One of the best engines from Germany and the best high altitude engine from Germany (World War II)!

The ("Volldruckhöhe")best outputperformance was at 9000 meters and you can push it to 12000 meters with GM1, so you have an engine that can match with the Merlin and the Pratt and Whitney 2800!

 

[Soren]

I do not agree entirely with your post, I feel the Dora 9 lacked in all departments,

In all departments ? Erich the Dora-9 was faster at SL and up to around 6km, it climbed faster, turned better, rolled better and featured better high speed maneuverability than the Mustang.

Atleast it ended out having the advantages above.. As we both know the clearence to use MW-50 Erhöhte Ladedrück didn't come before the Dora-9 had already been some time in service, and up untill then Start u. Notleistung 1,750PS/3,250RPM was the max out-put. - Which might also explain the out-come of many engagements with the RAF RCAF.

what the Luftwaffe needed was the replacement and that was the Ta 15H-1 or the Dora 13.

If the war was to be turned around or significantly dragged out then yes, the Ta-152H-1 and Dora-12/13 were needed in numbers.

the Grünherz book produced some years ago covering the Dora fits my evaluation the RAF. RCAF shot up and spit out III./JG 54 and JG 26 on a continual basis and that was not being outnumbered

Are you sure that the Dora's weren't outnumbered by the RCAF Erich ?? Besides you've also got to remember that the quality of LW pilots at that point was pretty low.

After the war the Dora-13 which was heavier than the Dora-9 out-maneuvered a Tempest Mk.V flown by an experienced pilot on the type in a mock dogfight.


Renrich,

The climb rate of the Dora-9 at SonderNotleistung 2,100PS@3,250RPM is 4,400 ft/min cleanly loaded, with the ETC-504 attached it is around 4,200 ft/min.

 

[Lucky13]

Just though that it would have been a good altitude engine....

Power output:

1,838 kW (2,465 hp) at 3,200 rpm for takeoff
1,397 kW (1,870 hp) cruise
Specific power: 39.5 kW/L (0.87 hp/in³)
Compression ratio: 6.5:1
Specific fuel consumption: 0.29 kg/(kW·h) (0.477 lb/(hp·h))
Power-to-weight ratio: 1.69 kW/kg (1.03 hp/lb)

I'm sure that you know that better than me mate.

 

[DonL]

@ Lucky13

don't forget the best high altitudes engines came from Rolls Royce with the Merlin engine! Than came the Pratt and Whitney 2800 from the P-47 and the Corsair.

And Lucky so far I don't know everything! In the last hour I have read some source about the Jumo 222!

To my Opinion the Projekt 4 Valve for the Jumo 213 E is much more effective than the "super" engine Jumo 222. The Jumo 222 is a little bit to complicated for 1940-1945!

 

[Jackson]

FW 190 D-9 Flight Trials

is this real? Looks like it is supposed to be FW test translated

E-Stelle
Rechlin Flight Performance Fw 190 D-9
with Jumo 213 A. Erpr. Nr.9003
Teilber.2.

2 March 1945


Summary.
Flight performance of the Fw. 190 D-9 (production version) is given. Speed at altitude was flown with Serial Nr. 006. Various aircraft were checked at 3,000 rpm during continuous testing. Speeds reached 323 to 329 mph (520 to 530 km/h) at sea level and 388 to 395 mph (625 and 635km/h) at 21,325 ft (6.5 km) (about full throttle height, depending on engine adjustment). With 3250 rpm, speeds reached 335 to 342 (540 and 550 km/h) at sea level and 401 to 407 mph (645 and 655 km/h) at 21,653 feet (6.6 km). With 3250 rpm and a take-off weight of 9,480 lbs (4,300 kg), rate of climb was 3,329 ft/min (17.0 m/s) at sea level and 392 ft/min (2.0 m/s) at 33,465 feet (10.2 km).


only 655 Kph? I have seen 426 MPH elsewhere 357 at Sea Level (common)



Mustang B

I read 367 SL 437 at 25,000 feet..(common)


Official Wright Patterson AFB tests


P-51 Mustang Performance

Maximum speed at critical altitudes. (67" Hg. man. pressure 3000 RPM)

Low Blower at 16,600 feet 430.0 MPH
High Blower at 29,400 feet 442.0 MPH
Maximum speed at sea level (67" Hg. manifold pressure 3000 RPM)
371.0 MPH











Was the Mustang really that much faster than the Dora 9?

 

[Jackson]

is this real and can anyone read it?

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190d9speed2chart.jpg


540 kph @ SL 335 MPH



Seeems like this FW document shows it was significantly slower at SL than the Mustang..by 36 mph (nearly 60KPH)


But I guess that would depend on the blower

 

[Jackson]

FW 190D with boost @ SL 585 kph /362 MPH


http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/fw190/fw190d9speed2chart.jpg

Just a little sloer than the P51 @ SL

 

[Jackson]

Lutz Naudet placed these performance trials in their proper context:

Now lets come to the interpretation as to why both Wk.-Nr. 001 002 generally fall short of calculated values. The first problem with all flight trials of Wk.-Nr. 001 002 is that they were done with the initial batch of production engines, which have well documented problems with supercharger performance. These issues resulted in the engines producing 60-100PS less than that used in the calculations. The second problem is the engine gap. The drag data for the D9 most likely comes from scale models; those models will not have the engine gap as they are "carved out of one piece of wood". The scale model, therefore, has a smoother surface than the real airplane. The speed increase in the tests, where the gap was sealed, support this assumption. Nevertheless, the tests are representative of performance for operational Fw 190 D9s. As best as can be determined, the engine gap seal was never introduced into serial production due to rubber shortages. It must also be said, however, that operational planes with a good surface finish and an engine running to book values will perform better than both Wk.-Nr. 001 002. This is supported by the few speed runs with the JUMO 213A tested on the bench.

 

[Jackson]

same page FW 190 D-9 in German

FW 190 D-9 Flight Trials

Flugleistungen FW 190 D-9

Flugbericht FW 190 D-9/210001
Nr. 1 S.O.Archiv
Bad Eilsen


real?

 

[AV8]

The D-9 at the former Champlin Fighter Museum was a complete unit. The only "bits and pieces" part about it was that Champlin's plane had the wings from the one in the Smithsonian and vice versa.

When Champlin sold his museum to the Museum of Flight, they discovered the discrepancey and reunited the correct wings with the correct airframes.

The Champlin is the one restored with the direct help of Kurt Tank, and is VERY complete and could be flown anytime if desired. It starts, runs, and was kept in airworthy shape, but not kept insured for flight or with a current airworthiness certificate.

a VERY nice aircraft.

 

[davparlr]

I don't have words to say about the pole other than it is an insult to intelligence. The P-51B came out at the end of 1943 and generally out performed the Fw-190A and Me-109G over the entire spectrum. Germany scrambled for a year trying to find a answer for it (the Fw-190D-9 at low to mid level over the P-51D, and the Me-109K at all levels).

The Fw-190D-9 appears superior to the P-51D up to 25k feet. Above that the P-51D has much superior speed and starts having a better climb.

Now if we take into account the contemporary (44-1 fuel) P-51B, then I would say that it is even with the Fw-190D-9 (in speed and climb, maneuverability is ?) up to 15k ft. Above that, the P-51B has a generally superior rate of climb and a rapidly increasing speed advantage (14 mph speed advantage and 300 ft/min rate of climb advantage at 20k. At 25k, the airspeed advantage is 18 mph and equivalent climb. Above that, there is no comparison).

 

[DonL]

@ Jackson,

from all I could see the data sheet from you is right!

 

[Soren]

The tests Jackson provided were however performed with underperforming engines - something Lutz Naudet notes as-well.

Here's the real performance of the FW-190 Dora-9, 612 km/h at SL 702 km/h at 5.7km:

 

[Soren]

Now if we take into account the contemporary (44-1 fuel) P-51B, then I would say that it is even with the Fw-190D-9 (in speed and climb, maneuverability is ?) up to 15k ft. Above that, the P-51B has a generally superior rate of climb and a rapidly increasing speed advantage (14 mph speed advantage and 300 ft/min rate of climb advantage at 20k. At 25k, the airspeed advantage is 18 mph and equivalent climb. Above that, there is no comparison).

Errr, running on 150 grade fuel the P-51B aint that fast, the Dora-9 is still faster at SL and some way up, and the Dora-9's climb rate is also still higher. Maneuverability still goes to the Dora-9, although its very close.

Fw-190 Dora-9:
Top speed SL = 612 km/h (382.5 mph)
Top speed FTH = 702 km/h (439 mph)
Max climb rate = 22.5 m/s (4,430 ft/min)

P-51B Mustang:
Top speed SL = 600 km/h (375 mph)
Top speed FTH = 714 km/h (446 mph)
Max climb rate = 22.2 m/s (4,380 ft/min)

 

[Jackson]

Yeah, it seems to me that the Dora and the Mustang at Sea Leavel are really probably dead on about even in speed.

depends on loading, how many 20 mm rounds and how many guns are strapped into his holster and how much fuel both are carrying, with or without bomb / rocket racks

I mean there are reports of 51D s hitting 600 mph, but they are probably in error - the guages, calibration, a dirty pitot tube, who knows, an extra coat of wax, dumb luck, minor variation from plane to plane, clean spark plugs, the mechanic got laid the night before, or was over worked, etc ..

Of course I don't trust the 500-600 mph stuff..

I am just saying.. at sea level.. eh, D- v -D They are even more or less.

I raced a co worker with an indentical new Ford Mustang 5.0 L , I left him cold at around 80 mph, by about 100 yards meters. I weighed a little less than him and my gas tank was empty- something like that..


Max. speed at Sea Level 75" Hg., 3000 RPM Without Wing Racks 388 mph

Army Air Forces Material Command
Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio
15 May 1944
P-51B-15-NA 43-24777
(Packard Merlin V-1650-7)
Performance Tests on P-38J, P-47D and P-51B Airplanes
Tested with 44-1 Fuel. (GRADE 104/150)


P-51 Mustang Performance


>?388?<

My co worker migh have beaten me another day, with different temperatures, barometric pressure etc.. I was reading in a car magazine, one hundred drag runs, one car, over and over, best runs around 78 F, 29.4 on the barometer..

(Ford Mustangs, mid nineteen eighties had a ambient air pressure sensor, to calibrate the engine for differnet altitudes and air pressures, later models went to a "mass air" sensor system) . Later I changed my radiator cooling fan and the car ran 'different' somehow..chalk it up to a 'funny' cowl pressure


I would call it even at SL, splitting "cat" hairs