P-51D "Mustang" vs. Fw-190 "Dora"

[Jackson]

If Germany had Mustangs they could run at 74 hg, they migh not have needed the Me 262- what did that guy say 600 mph at 1000 feet? Isn't that close to 1,000 Kph down near the deck. I forget what is the speed of sound at sea level.

Don't forget to get back to me with the with or without bomb racks info/data on your 35 degree centigrade (Florida in July) flight test.

The we can see how this might relate to the 600 mph report of the November in Germany, P51 Mustang pilot.

 

[Brain32]

That was in a dive, NOT level flight, 600MPH=965kmh at sea level Mach1 is 1224kmh, so that would be what, mach number of 0.8? That's nothing special really and could also be attained by German propeller fighters.
Me262 was much faster IN LEVEL FLIGHT than any piston engined aircraft.
What's also very interesting about that report is the fact that P51's were redlined at 505MPH, so this guy either played lottery with his life or made a false readout, in the heat of the battle who could blaim him...

 

[Erich]

Brain that is a fact about the dive and almost blowing rivets and tearing the wings off. Remember some 6-7 years ago interviewing at length 352nd fg ace D. Bryan about his trips on Ar 234's until he finally bagged one bombing Remagen bridge, the turns and incredible G forces he took his Stang nearly killed him.

Another 356th fg chap also chasing and downing a Ar 234 also had some trouble keeping up and really took some nasty fast manuevers to bring his .50's to bear

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I thought it was petty obvious that 600mph in a P-51D was in a dive.

 

[drgondog]

That was in a dive, NOT level flight, 600MPH=965kmh at sea level Mach1 is 1224kmh, so that would be what, mach number of 0.8? That's nothing special really and could also be attained by German propeller fighters.
Me262 was much faster IN LEVEL FLIGHT than any piston engined aircraft.
What's also very interesting about that report is the fact that P51's were redlined at 505MPH, so this guy either played lottery with his life or made a false readout, in the heat of the battle who could blaim him...

Correct - the P-51B-J models all had a Machcrit of .76 which was where they hit compressibility and in a dive started the same yaw right pitch down as the elevators were blanked by the wake turbulence and the rudder became less effective.

600mph would be about 521kts which at sea level STP would about .78-.8 Mach? Close enough to your .8 to be beyond Mcrit. IAS would be less at a higher (survivable pull out) altitude

The Mustang book by Gruenhagen recounts .75 obtained in terminal dive w/o prop in specially modified Mustang for tow to altitude with same characteristics (yaw/pitch) as in power on tests - all done to validate 'real' with wind tunnel data.

However, having said that, which German Prop fighters reached .8 Mach and where could I find reference to them?

Interestingly enough the fastest variant of the 51 was the Lightweight prototype XP-51G which hit 495mph/430kts TAS(stripped) at 22,800 which was about ~.64 -.65 Mach in level flight at that altitude. Nosing over in dive would quickly accelerate to Mcrit.

The P51H followed the G into production with several important changes including restoring the six .50 vs the four in the G and only lost 8mph after all the production changes were incorporated.

Regards,

Bill

 

[Brain32]

Well actually I've heard many contradicting things about P51 max.Mach number, the highest I've heard is 0.82M.
Anyway about German planes, I have a document of ME109F with G wings high speed trials where plane in question reached Mach 0.805.
I will make a quick search on the Tech. subforum as I have a feeling I got it from here, if I don't find it I will upload it

EDIT: Here it is: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ot.../bf109-high-speed-trials-8371.html#post254817

 

[drgondog]

Well actually I've heard many contradicting things about P51 max.Mach number, the highest I've heard is 0.82M.
Anyway about German planes, I have a document of ME109F with G wings high speed trials where plane in question reached Mach 0.805.
I will make a quick search on the Tech. subforum as I have a feeling I got it from here, if I don't find it I will upload it

EDIT: Here it is: http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ot.../bf109-high-speed-trials-8371.html#post254817

Actually the 51H (and XP-51G) had a thinner wing than both the D (fattest) and the B/C so it is conceivable that they both had higher Mcrit but I'm certain the D was around .76 (compressibility - yes not precisely the same but bad things happened 'back there' when that TAS was exceeded)

Thanks for the reference

Regards,

Bill

 

[Jackson]

For fifteen minutes at 74 hg and indicating 600 mph after my prolonged dive I gave chase

A fifteen minute dive at 600 mph? that would put him half way to China (joke)

What is the top speed of a ME262?? 540 mph "Neither could gain an inch"

The inertia from that dive couldn't have lasted forever,

 

[renrich]

Went to air races once in Texas. In the unlimited class there were a number of Mustangs, some highly modified, the only name I can remember was Dago Red, highly modified. Was a LeMans start, semi, exciting watching the pilots sprint to the A/C, start engines and taxi out. Super Corsair was there too. A jet pace plane was used and when he got everyone lined up, he rolled away and over the PA system called "we have a race." All planes were in a dive toward the pylons from perhaps 10000 ft and the announcer said they were doing 500 mph when the passed the first pylon which speed of course immediately began to bleed off. My source says that max permissible dive speed for P51D was 505 IAS below 9000 feet and 539 mph TAS at 35000 ft which was Mach .81. That kind of jibes with the air races.

 

[drgondog]

For fifteen minutes at 74 hg and indicating 600 mph after my prolonged dive I gave chase

A fifteen minute dive at 600 mph? that would put him half way to China (joke)

What is the top speed of a ME262?? 540 mph "Neither could gain an inch"

The inertia from that dive couldn't have lasted forever,

Jackson - as much as I love the 51 I don't think he could see 600mph/521kts IAS unless there was an instrument error. that is REAL close to .8 Mach at sea level and .88 at 30,000 feet. The D wing caused enough flow separation at .73-.76 that the elevators and rudders became much less effective put the 51D into increasing nose down pitch and right hand yaw. And you can't use trim in a terminal dive with a D w/o breaking the bird... must use stick to pull out

At 600mph TAS the IAS at 30K is around 340mph IAS - way up there

I would believe a local compressibility issue with the pitot tube a lot more than a sustained .8-85 Mach in level flight for a 51D... the XP-51G at 5500 pounds empty and the equivalent of the same -9 Merlin as the H was fastest at .65 Mach (495mph at 22,800 feet).. So in level flight, the fastest 51 until Reno Races 40 years later was 50+ mph slower than the 262 and the D was 100mph slower.

Regards,

Bill

 

[Kurfürst]

FW 190 D-9 Flight Trials

is this real? Looks like it is supposed to be FW test translated

E-Stelle
Rechlin Flight Performance Fw 190 D-9
with Jumo 213 A. Erpr. Nr.9003
Teilber.2.


Was the Mustang really that much faster than the Dora 9?

I think it certainly was, at least if we are to believe Mike Williams's usual manipulated set of documentation that is yet again follows the old simple rules. Show only the lowest tests done on German aircraft, preferably never on maximum power. Never cease to repeat every German dataset is 'very optimistic' and the plane was not even half as capable in real life...

Now the thing is, the Rechlin test results are not for full power on the Dora-9, but 30-min rating (rpms can be deceitul on the Jumo 213 engine because of complex ratings w and w/o MW-50) however, they are very close the FW 190D-9 calculated datasheets results at similiar power.

William's site is very deceitful, it constantly manipulates with filtering the available documentation to serve the agenda of the author. It has been exposed long ago, and I am a bit surpirse anyone is still giving credence to anything that was in any way subjected to William's editorial work.

The Wright report is interesting in that it seems to claim a D-9 with Jumo 213E engine. That's probably some rebuild, since the 3 speed, 2 stage 213E was not powering any serial production D-9 (which were powered by the 2s/2s Jumo 213A), but the Ta 152H...

Judging from the report, it must have been some guys from Lockheed writing it hehe.

 

[Kurfürst]

However, having said that, which German Prop fighters reached .8 Mach and where could I find reference to them?

Lukas Schmid obtained 0.805 Mach and 906 km/h with a Bf 109F-2 after having it's aileron deflection limited to half as aileron and around ,75 before that. In both cases it was well over the dive limits of the aircraft. I believe that's the highest they actually recorded on an early model, the later ones had reinforced wings so may have reached higher speeds. In other tests they quite regulary hit around .75 without particularly aiming at it.

I don't know of the FW 190. Probably similiar.

 

[Jackson]

yeah, I dunno the horsepower at 74 hg on a Merlin, he is lucky the thing did not blow, but they allowed 75 hg..lots of this is kinda funny, they had been flying the P51 for years.

like here

FW 190 D-9 Flight Trials


Langenhagen, 16 March 1945
Gt/Schw.


Level Speed - Combat Power 3000 rpm
Jumo 213 A engine W. Nr 2229 Jumo 213 A engine W. Nr 0465
335 mph @ SL 342 mph @ SL
404 mph at 19,685 ft. (FTH) 362 mph at 4,922 ft.


That is March 1945, and they are still doing tests on Wk Nr 210002, I gather that #2 is an early production werks. and getting 342 @ SL.. huh

It also looks like they tested #2 in October '44 @367 with boost methanol

when did they get the bugs out of it? sometime in April/ May 1945?

two steps back, one step forward?

Some days things just run better than other days.. that is all it is, temperature, barometer, fresh oil, an extra coat of wax..

That's what makes hose races



Yeah , I know Dago Red..

Like I pointed out about the Ford 5.0 L, I have one, I doubt I ever hit (was it) 5.8 seconds 0-60 brand new, before I added lots of "bolt ons", and over a period of 20 years of tuning, porting the heads intake, changing injector nozzles, over sized throttle bodies, over sized pipes, I assume they had old fashioned "points" with a shaved cam, MSD ignition (lol) a hot coil, over sized exhaust

motor head junk for you gear headed folks out there.

Maybe the P51 mechanic was good, real good..

But I would still speculate the Wright Patterson May 44 environment was closer to German conditions than the Florida 44 in July tests.

Back to the bomb racks question? 8-12 mph

 

[Jackson]

Yep, I heard some say the site is biased..

But like you pointed out, the pilots had their planes modified, to increase performance..

so, I have also said @ SL I would call it even "D" Vs Dora

Unless of course you wanna tell me that the Wright Patterson @388 test was a one off anomaly..

Then I will point to the 367 @ SL test for the Dora and say..

get out your digital camera and show me the axel grease under YOUR finger nails- over

The P51 had been around for a while, who knows what kinda things people were doing, have you ever tossed a few "mothballs" in your gas tank?

Try it sometime, but dont go driving around all day at 5500 rpm, unless you fell like spending all weekend doing a rebuild

 

[Kurfürst]

yeah, I dunno the horsepower at 74 hg on a Merlin, he is lucky the thing did not blow, but they allowed 75 hg..lots of this is kinda funny, they had been flying the P51 for years.

like here

FW 190 D-9 Flight Trials


Langenhagen, 16 March 1945
Gt/Schw.


Level Speed - Combat Power 3000 rpm
Jumo 213 A engine W. Nr 2229 Jumo 213 A engine W. Nr 0465
335 mph @ SL 342 mph @ SL
404 mph at 19,685 ft. (FTH) 362 mph at 4,922 ft.

That's 'combat power' is not the same as in British terms, where it means WEP. Combat power is a direct translation of the German term Kampfleistung, which means power allowed for 30-min (the rpm figure also shows this, the max. was 3250 rpm).

To complicate matter further, the Jumo 213A had several boosting systems, which meant that former WEPs often become one less of a power setting.

Compared to the actual maximum power of the D-9, this test looks like untilizing about continous cruise power or so.

The German docs give around 612 km/h at SL for the D-9 at full power, and if you look up Caldwell's JG 26 diary a pilot says there he was able to reach those speeds with his D-9 (he praised it's factory, Sorau making solidly built birds).

That is March 1945, and they are still doing tests on Wk Nr 210002, I gather that #2 is an early production werks. and getting 342 @ SL.. huh

And...?

It also looks like they tested #2 in October '44 @367 with boost methanol

when did they get the bugs out of it? sometime in April/ May 1945?

What bugs? You need to realize the world wasn't black and white even back then. On that size you'll get a list of tests that were done on some of the early production airframes the factory used as test hacks for all sorts of measurements, plus a test run at Rechlin which did not make use of full power. Which alone proves nothing - especially without seeing the original documentation itself, and what was edited out of it. I've seen that happen on that site.. whole sentences being cut off from documents, that were otherwise badly (willingly?) mistranslated..

Mustang tests are just the same, in fact I recall seeing even greater variations between individual planes and test than with other planes, perhaps it's laminar flow wing was more sensitive to surface treatment (or abuse.. see also GI boots).

 

[Jackson]

Yep, all kinds of variations, thats why I said 'even' at sea level early on... depends on who your ground crew was, I raced my Mustang against an identical one brand new, within a week of buying it..


Unless sombody whats to tell me as a 'fact' they know the Dora was faster at SL.. Then you will hear..

The P51 shows 388 mph (625 kph) for a "stock" production plane as tested.

Here in the US, not many leave their Ford Mustang V-8 5.0 L stock for very long.. I have picked up more than 1 second on mine 0-60, thats 15 % (6 original and under 5 today).


I suspect the "motor heads" back then were no different, US air bases were firmly established, there was no constant repositioning in retreat.

The Merlin had been around forever, ok almost 10 years, when did the 213 A finally go into production-1944? Not long enough to work things out, hence the "bugs" comment. The 213 E was still pretty new, these engines being tested in March 1945 were "A" models.


Still no answer on the 'Wing racks" question..

 

[lesofprimus]

Tweaking an aircraft for better performance was something most mechanics and blackmen did, if they knew what they were doing...

Towards the end of the War, however, many of the mechanics and technicians that kept the Luftwaffe pilots up in the air were conscipted into the ground forces with little chance for survival, as the Russians were relentless on their approaches through Germany....

Some of u will recall the habit of polishing their 109's and 190's with floor wax to decrease the kites air resistance.... They did alot more than that I can guarantee u....

All this number crunching top speed, which was better in which test bullsh!t has been boring the hell out of me for decades.... Pretty much every single plane that was tested performed differently... My Grandfather recalled the differences in the Corsairs he flew, and they were as obvious as the scar on his forehead.... Each bird had its own characteristics and plus'/minus'...

The way 214 did it, u flew whatever plane u could climb into....

Now, if u think about how one German pilot and one head mechanic were sometimes, in the best scenarios, with each other for months/years... As most of u guys who know what ur talking about already know, just about EVERYONE tweaked their aircraft, sometimes illegally, to the chagrin, and blessing, of the pilot... A faster plane meant a better chance of living through the day...

 

[pbfoot]

Nicely said Les every aircraft was different as my father said the best way to increase performance of an aircraft was getting all the dirt and dust out of it was the aircraft painted or clean the list is ad infintium

 

[drgondog]

I think it certainly was, at least if we are to believe Mike Williams's usual manipulated set of documentation that is yet again follows the old simple rules. Show only the lowest tests done on German aircraft, preferably never on maximum power. Never cease to repeat every German dataset is 'very optimistic' and the plane was not even half as capable in real life...

Now the thing is, the Rechlin test results are not for full power on the Dora-9, but 30-min rating (rpms can be deceitul on the Jumo 213 engine because of complex ratings w and w/o MW-50) however, they are very close the FW 190D-9 calculated datasheets results at similiar power.

William's site is very deceitful, it constantly manipulates with filtering the available documentation to serve the agenda of the author. It has been exposed long ago, and I am a bit surpirse anyone is still giving credence to anything that was in any way subjected to William's editorial work.

The Wright report is interesting in that it seems to claim a D-9 with Jumo 213E engine. That's probably some rebuild, since the 3 speed, 2 stage 213E was not powering any serial production D-9 (which were powered by the 2s/2s Jumo 213A), but the Ta 152H...

Judging from the report, it must have been some guys from Lockheed writing it hehe.

So, who 'exposed it', what was their agenda, and what replaced Mike's site as the organ of 'pure' truth with respect to real flight test data?

Jes curious,

Bill

 

[Lucky13]

Wise words Les....