P-51's vs. Me-109's and Fw-190's

[lesofprimus]

And the fact that the Luftwaffe would send up 10 fighters to assault a formation of over 120 aircraft... There wasnt enough fuel........

Here are the Top Aces and what happened to them...

The 300 Club......

Erich Alfred "Bubi" Hartmann - 352, The Ace of Aces flew around 1,456 (missions). He engaged in air combat approximately 850 times, was never shot down by an enemy plane and never lost a wingman (Gunther Capito was shot down but survived). He surrendered to the Americans on May 8th 1945 and was subsequently turned over to the Russians. He was 'tried' for 'war crimes' and was sentenced to 25 years hard labor. He then spent the next 10 and a half years in Russian Gulags. After his release, he served in the Bundesluftwaffe. He "joined old friends" on the 19th of September 1993.

Erich Gerhard "Gerd" Barkhorn - 301, Flew 1104 missions. Badly hurt in an Me262 crash on April 17th 1945. He surrendered to the Americans at the end of the war but, surprisingly, he was not turned over to the Russians. He retired as a Major General from the Bundesluftwaffe. During a winter storm on January 6th 1983, Barkhorn and his wife were involved in a car accident. She died at the scene and he died 2 days later

The 200 club...........

Gunther Rall - 275, Flew 621 missions. Shot down 8 times. Badly wounded including the loss of his left thumb during a wild combat session with P-47's of "Zemke's Wolfpack". 'Captured' by the British. Joined Bundesluftwaffe. Retired in 1975. Still alive and signing autographs as of 2003

**Otto "Bruno" Kittel - 267, Flew 583 combat missions. Shot down twice and survived before being KIA February 14th 1945. At the time he was flying a FW190A-8 ("Black 1") as Staffelkapitan of 2./JG 54

**Walter "Nowi" Nowotny - 258, 1st to 250 kills and in only 442 missions! Ouch. Austrian, KIA November 8th 1944 (by Edward R. Haydon) while flying an Me262 against B-17s. "Nowi", finding himself burning alive, nose dived into the ground. He was 23

Wilhelm "Willi" Batz - 237, Evaded Soviet capture at war's end. Joined and retired from the Bundesluftwaffe. Died September 11th 1988

Erich Rudorffer - 224, (12 with a jet) Holds Luftwaffe record of most kills in a single mission with 13. Was shot down 16 times. Bailed out 9 times. Survived the war and served in the Bundesluftwaffe. He retired as a commercial pilot. Was still alive as of 2000 but does not discuss the war years

Heinrich "Pritzl" Bar - 221, (16 with a jet. Another luftwaffe record) Survived the war but was killed in a civilian plane crash in 1957

Herman Graf - 212, (200 in 13 months!) Survived the war. Surrendered to the Americans with Hartmann and was turned over to the Russians. Released in 1950. Died 4 November 1988

**Heinrich Ehrler - 209, KIA April 4th 1945. After shooting down two B-17's and running out of ammo, Ehrler is reported to have said, " Theo! (Weissenberger) I have run out of ammunition! I am going to ram this one! Auf Wiedersehen! I'll see you in Valhalla!" and then he ramed a third B-17. His body was found the next day.

Theodore "Theo" Weissenberger - 208, Survived the war and was killed in a car racing accident at Nurburgring, June 10th 1950

**Hans "Fips" Philipp - 206, KIA October 8th 1943 while flying a FW 190. This kill was claimed by Robert S. Johnson but Luftwaffe eye witnesses say it was the gunners in the B-17's they were attacking that got him.

Walter Schuck - 206, Flew only 109s and 262s. He survived the war and was still around and signing autographs as of 1999.

**Anton "Toni" Hafner - 204, KIA October 17th 1944 when he lost situational awareness in a low-level dogfight with Yaks (big mistake) and his 109 hit a tree.

Helmut Lipfert - 203, Was shot down 15 times. Survived the war. Surrendered but was not turned over to the Russians and subsequently became a school teacher. Died in 1990

 

[Erich]

here might be a spot to enter an interesting note. Tony Hackl a bomber/fighter killer preferred the 109G-6/AS to take on US fighter escorts and then the Fw 190A-8 to take on US heavy bombers.........

so what is this telling us guys ? I have said repeatedly the 109 was superior at high altitiude and the Fw 190A was the overall best defence prop job against the heavy bomber pulks

 

[wmaxt]

here might be a spot to enter an interesting note. Tony Hackl a bomber/fighter killer preferred the 109G-6/AS to take on US fighter escorts and then the Fw 190A-8 to take on US heavy bombers.........

so what is this telling us guys ? I have said repeatedly the 109 was superior at high altitiude and the Fw 190A was the overall best defence prop job against the heavy bomber pulks

I have no quibble with the comments above posts in genral.

First I would never question the bravery of any of the combattants. At times both sides flew with 10:1 odd against them wheather it was P-38 pilots in late '43 or German pilots in '44/'45.

Second I respect the German Aces but how many of them were at or over 30 kills in 50 sorties or less, remember to, the German pilots had a more target rich environment so to speak? And to be fair how many Allied pilots would make it through the sorties the German pilots had to face? BTW I consider it luck to bail out of anything in WWII and live.

My comment to Udet was in relation to his comment that most of the pre '43 experts made it through the war - not Many did. I think it was a terrible waste to lose those fine men but it did happen.

Of course the aircraft evaluations above are in reference to Luftwaffe aircraft available.

wmaxt

 

[Udet]

wmaxt:

Whatever records you might have consulted, all I can tell you is have fun! Continue to sing the same old allied song.

Whatever!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

here might be a spot to enter an interesting note. Tony Hackl a bomber/fighter killer preferred the 109G-6/AS to take on US fighter escorts and then the Fw 190A-8 to take on US heavy bombers.........

so what is this telling us guys ? I have said repeatedly the 109 was superior at high altitiude and the Fw 190A was the overall best defence prop job against the heavy bomber pulks

Agreed completely. That in my opinion is the best way to sum it up.

Whatever records you might have consulted, all I can tell you is have fun! Continue to sing the same old allied song.

Whatever!

O' Brother, here we go again.

 

[Udet]

wmaxt is in fact singing the same old allied song.

The "pre-1943 experten who made it through 1944" came right out of his sleeve.

What I did say was the majority of the Luftwaffe experten finished the war. A fact, not a speculation.

I find it silly having to clarify everybody knows 1944 was the year when Luftwaffe losses peaked.

Mr. wmaxt is likely to divert the discussion to the "who won the war in the end" dead end alley. Would that be the case, I am not interested in going there.

As to why the Sturmböcke "failed" to stop the allied air offensive over Europe. I wonder if wmaxt has ever acknowledged that by mid/late 1943 the USAAF command thought if they could carry on bearing such tremendous losses. And the sturmböck did not arrive in any signficant numbers until mid/ late 1944, kind of late and not enough in numbers; still they proved they were brutally effcient bomber destroyers.

As I have said before, the Luftwaffe was not defeated on any "decisive" battle, but through a long period (1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943) of losses of several degrees that in the end turned the fight as one impossible to win.

You are correct when saying they put a hell of a fight in view of insurmountable odds though; this assertion can be put into deeper perspective if you take into account that, again, by late 1943 the USAAF command really wondered if they could continue waging a war swallowing such tremendous losses.

By late 1943, the USAAF, in the form of the 8th air force, had been on stage in Europe -in significant numbers- hardly for one year, not alone, not by themselves but hand-in-hand with the RAF, and the lower quality VVS in the east.

So after hardly one year of operations they were assessing the continuation of the air offensive against Germany, fighting an enemy air force that had seen non-stop action during the last 4 years: Fall Weiss, Fall Gelb, Battle of Britain, Operation Marita, Barbarossa, Blau, North Africa, Mediterranean, Artic Circle...

This can certainly help a bit in understanding what kind of airmen the Germans were, and what kind of equipment they had.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

No one is argueing what kind of Pilots the Germans were and what kind of aircraft they had. I think everyone has agreed the Bf-109 and the Fw-190 were some of the best aircraft to see action. I think if you read the posts again you will see that everyone has agreed to that.

 

[wmaxt]

No one is argueing what kind of Pilots the Germans were and what kind of aircraft they had. I think everyone has agreed the Bf-109 and the Fw-190 were some of the best aircraft to see action. I think if you read the posts again you will see that everyone has agreed to that.

Agreed, The three aircraft here were very closely matched. Each had advantages over the others and with competent pilots each of them could win a 1:1 engagement.

wmaxt

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Agreed!

 

[lesofprimus]

Heres a listing of the Top German Aces......... * means KIA........

50 of 108 were Killed during the War...

22 in 1944
16 in 1943
9 in 1945
3 in 1942

The 300 Club...

Erich Hartmann
352
Erich Gerhard "Gerd" Barkhorn
301

The 200 club...........

Gunther Rall
275
*Otto "Bruno" Kittel
267 KIA Feb14 45
*Walter "Nowi" Nowotny
258 KIA Nov8 44
Wilhelm "Willi" Batz
237
Erich Rudorffer
224
Heinrich "Pritzl" Bar
221
Herman Graf
212
*Heinrich Ehrler
209 KIA Apr4 45
Theodore "Theo" Weissenberger
208
*Hans "Fips" Philipp
206 KIA Oct8 43
Walter Schuck
206
*Anton "Toni" Hafner
204 KIA Oct17 44
Helmut Lipfert
203

The 100 Club...

Walter Krupinski
197
Anton Hackl
192
Joachim Brendel
189
* Maximilian Stotz
189 (MIA 19aug43)
* Joachim Kirschner
188 (KIA '43)
* Kurt Hans Friedrich Brandle
180 (KIA 3nov43)
Gunther Josten
178
Johannes Steinhoff
176
Ernst-Wilhelm Reinert
174
Gunther Schack
174
* Emil Lang
173 (KIA 3sep44)
* Heinz Schmidt
173 (MIA 5sep43)
* Horst Ademeit
166 (MIA 7aug44)
* Wolf-Dietrich Wilcke
162 (KIA 23mar44)
* Hans-Joachim Marseille
158 (KIFA 30sep42)
* Heinrich Sturm
157 (KiFA 22dec44)
Gerhard Thyben
157
* Hans Beisswenger
152 (KIA 6mar43)
Peter Duttmann
152
Gordon Gollob
150
Fritz Tegtmeier
146
* Albin Wolf
144 (+32 unconfimed, KIA 2apr44)
Kurt Tanzer
143
* "Tutti" Friedrich-Karl Muller
140 (KIA 29may44)
* Heinrich Setz
138 (KIA 13mar43)
Rudolf Trenkel
138
Walter Wolfrum
137
* Franz Schall
137 (KiFA 10apr45)
* Horst-Gunther von Fassong
136 (KIA 1jan45)
* Otto Fonnekold
136 (KIA 13aug44)
* Karl-Heinz Weber
136 (KIA 7jun44)
Adolf Dickfeld
136
* Joachim Muncheberg
135 (KIA 23mar43)
* Hans Waldmann
134 (KiFA 18mar45)
Alfred Grislawski
133
"Hannes" Johannes Wiese
133 (+75 probs)
Adolf Borchers
132
* Erwin Clausen
132 (KIA 4oct43)
* Wilhelm Lemke
131 (KIA 4dec43)
Herbert Ihlefeld
130 (7 from SCW)
* "Bazi" Heinrich Sterr
130 (KIA 26nov44)
Franz Eisenach
129
Walter Dahl
128 (36 4-engined bombers)
Franz Dorr
128
Friedrich Obleser
127
Rudolf Rademacher
126
* "Jupp" Josef Zwernemann
126 (KIA 8apr44)
* Freidrich Wachowiak
126 (KIA 16jul44)
"Dieter" Dietrich Hrabak
125
* Gerhard Hoffman
125 (MIA 17apr45)
* Walter Oesau
125 (KIA 11may44)
* Wolf-Udo Ettel
124 ( KIA 17jul43)
* Wolfgang Tonne
122 (KIFA 20apr43)
Heinz Marquardt
121
Heinz -Wolfgang Schnaufer
121 (Top Nightfighter)
"Bazzi" Robert Weiss
121
* Erich Leie
118 (KIA 7mar45)
Franz-josef Beerenbrock
117
* Hans-Joachim Birkner
117 (KiFA 13dec44)
* Jakob Norz
117 (KiFA 16sep44)
* "Piepl" Heinz Wernicke
117 (KIA 27dec44)
* August Lambert
116 (KIA 17apr45)
* Werner Molders
115 (14 from SCW, KIFA 22nov42)
Wilhelm Crinius
114
Werner Schroer
114
* Hans Dammers
113 (WIA 13th D -17mar44)
* Berthold Korts
113 (MIA 29aug43)
"Bu-Mann" Kurt Buhlingen
112
* Helmut Lent
110 KIA 05/10/1944
* "Kuddel" Kurt Ubben
110 (KIA 27apr44)) *
Franz Woidich
110
Reinhard Seiler
109 (9 from SCW)
* Emil Bitsch
108 (KIA 15mar44)
"Assi" Hans Hahn
108
* Gunther Lutzow
108 (5 from SCW, KIA 24apr45)) *
Bernhard Vechtel
108
* Werner Lucas
106 (KIA 24oct43)
Viktor Bauer
106
Heinz Sachsenberg
104
Eberhard von Boremski
104
Adolf Galland
103
Siegfried Freytag
102
* Friedrich Geisshardt
102 (WIA 5th D - 6apr43))
* Egon Mayer
102 (KIA 2mar44)
* Max-Hellmuth Ostermann
102 (KIA 9aug42)
* "Sepp" Josef Wurmheller
102 (KIA 22jun44)
Herbert Rollwage
102
* Rudolf Miethig
101 (KIA 10jun43)
Rudolf Mueller
101
Josef Priller
101
Ulrich Wernitz
101
Paul-Heinrich Daehne
100

 

[lesofprimus]

Damn that took awhile....... Phew.

 

[Soren]

No. the P-40 was never intended to escort and the P-51 was originaly to be P-40s

Originally yes, but later on, before the normandy campaign, it was re-designed and intended partly for escort duty.

Escort was not contemplated even by the AAF. At that time self escort was the stratagy. I've also never read escort mentioned in reference to the P-51 until the Merlin conversion showed low fuel consumption in early '43.

Well, I am talking about the Merlin equipped P-51.

This includes imterviews with the P-51 designers. In fact the A-36/Mustang I version stopped production for two months in early '43 because it was not enough of an improvement over anything else - the Merlin/realization that escort was required saved it.

And I don't disagree with any of this... All im saying is that the P-51's flying over europe 'were' designed and intended, amongst other things, as escort fighters.

Numbers, tactics and pilot training/experiance do to. I think the P-51 is way overated (the P-38 is quite a bit better in virtualy every respect) but it could and did hold it's own in combat, with/without numbers

The P-51 was a good overall fighter, but not a good dogfighter...

When up against a Bf-109 piloted by a well trained LW pilot, the P-51 better be superior in numbers, or the P-51 was almost surely going to be shot down. A lonely dogfight with a well piloted 109 would almost guarantee disaster for a P-51.

Luckily for the P-51, it was vastly superior in numbers.

, even with the majority of Fw-190 encounters and I consider the Fw-190 quite a bit better than the Bf-109. The 109K was a better match to the P-51 but they were late and few.

THE 'only' reason someone could rate the 190 a better a/c than the 109, would be because of its easier controls and handling characteristics for fresh pilots. With an experienced pilot, the Bf-109 was quite a bit better than the Fw-190 as a pure fighter, with the exception of the 190D-9 which is up there with it though.

 

[Erich]

Les it would be of interest the pilots that you have listed, just what there US fighter scores were of how many and what type........

yeah a pain in the Butt it would be...

 

[lesofprimus]

I dont know if i have enough free time to do that.... Jezz what a project...

Heres an old listing I put together awhile ago... Not quite the same as what u asked above, but still pretty good nonetheless...

# / Name / US Kills / Total Kills / Bombers / Fighters

1. Georg-Peter Eder / 55 / 78 / 36 / 9xP47, 7xP51, 3xP38
2. Heinz Bär / 52 / 221/ 21 / 11xP51, 10xP47, 4xP38, 3xB25, 1xA20
3. Anton Hackl / 47 / 192 / 34 / 6xP47, 3xP38, 2xP51, 3 "??"
4. Kurt Bühligen / 46 / 112 / 24 / 13xP38, 9xP47
5. Walther Dahl / 41 / 128 / 30 / 6xP51, 3xP38, 2xP47
6. Konrad Bauer / 40 / 68 / 32 / 7xP51, 1xP38
7. Egon Mayer / 40 / 102 / 26 / 8xP47
8. Heinrich Bartels / 39 / 99 / 2 / 14xP38, 11xP51, 9xP47, 2xB25
9. Siegfried Lemke/ 39 / 70 / 21 / 8xP47, 6xP51, 2xP38, 2xB26, 1xB25, 1xP39
10. Werner Schroer / 36 / 114 / 26 / 8xP38, 1xP51, 1xP39

Used several places/books for reference on this info... Some of it u probably originally gathered Erich.... Hehe...

 

[Erich]

Les in about a month I will be able to truely stae whether or not Dahl and Bauer are full of crap or not. Dahl was a BS artist till his death and this is certainty. Bauer was a hot pilot flying a standard FW 190A-8 with 5.Sturm/JG 300 isntead of the heavy Sturmböcke of the staffel/gruppe, but it is interesting that he was wounded severly before December 44 and took over from the ground as Staffelführer of 5th staffel after Klaus Bretschneiders death. Konrad on many occassion was responsible for shooting down multiple P-51's in combat. His first deployement was through JG 51 where he racked up a few Soviet kills. What is odd though is the amount of US 4 engine bombers accredited to him as his total but something is wrong as he had nowhere the figure presented to him upon him being WIA, because after this he never flew operationaly again.

WErner Schroers activiies are with his JG 27 unit in Afrika.

You can easily see and take note of Heinz Bär and Toni Hackl, two greats behind the 109 and especially the Fw 190A-8 in JG's 1 and 11.

 

[lesofprimus]

Les in about a month I will be able to truely stae whether or not Dahl and Bauer are full of crap or not.

What happens in about a month??? U gettin access to some unseen archives???

 

[Erich]

actually the first volume of JG 300 is coming out. It should reveal some excellent first hand information. Hopefully I will be able to share but cannot reproduce any of the pics from the book due to the stress of the copyright relation......it will have to be purchased by you gents.

 

[lesofprimus]

Excellent...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Damn Erich you are going to have share the wealth okay!

Oh and by the way Erich it is not going to be over the Romantische Strasse on monday so I will not get any pics of Dinkelsbuehl but I have a to Belgium on Monday and I can get some pictures of some interesting castles or whatnot if we fly over them.

 

[Erich]

go for it Eagle !!