P-51's vs. Me-109's and Fw-190's

[DAVIDICUS]

I understand that the late war variants of the Me-109 and Fw-190 were not "outclassed" by the P-51 but were instead heavily outnumbered and that this numerical superiority of the P-51's gave the impression that the German fighters were outclassed.

My question is this:

What sort of numerical differential are we talking about?

 

[Erich]

try 10 or 12 to 1 for starts.....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Damn I knew it was high but not that high.

 

[Soren]

It was very high... I am although quite surprised to hear it was as high as 12 to 1 !

I always thought it was 7 or 8 to 1.

Where did you get this data Erich ?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree I was thinking for about 7 or 8 myself.

 

[Erich]

Soren where do you think ? the veterans of course. It was always made up in the after action combat reports and although in later 1944 till wars end the German radar systems in Frnce were gone they had very powerful sources that could tell when the Allied heavies were taking off as well as how many US prop fighters were taking off, thus you can easily see how the Luftwaffe pilots felt they were on a continual suicide mission late 44 till wars end. In some instances in 1945 it was over 25 to 1

 

[Soren]

Soren where do you think ? the veterans of course.

Oh, ofcourse !

It was always made up in the after action combat reports and although in later 1944 till wars end the German radar systems in Frnce were gone they had very powerful sources that could tell when the Allied heavies were taking off as well as how many US prop fighters were taking off, thus you can easily see how the Luftwaffe pilots felt they were on a continual suicide mission late 44 till wars end. In some instances in 1945 it was over 25 to 1.

Holy mother of mary ! 25 to 1 !

I must admit I never knew this. Always thought it was at most 8 to 1 in relatively rare instances, and that 6 to 1 was the normal...

One thing is for sure, those LW boys managed a hell of alot considdering their situation.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I can believe it was that high I just did not think it was.

 

[Erich]

after Normandie was done and over and we started plopping our bases on the main continent we could strike anywhere and not just from England anymore. wherever the Luftwaffe was going to be up, the RAF and US was there in overwhleming force. with only 6 ? Reich defence units still in the Reich in February 1945; the others on the Ost front you can easily anticipate my figures on missions of 20/25 to 1 in 1945. It was a bloody slaughter of German youth !

 

[Soren]

after Normandie was done and over and we started plopping our bases on the main continent we could strike anywhere and not just from England anymore. wherever the Luftwaffe was going to be up, the RAF and US was there in overwhleming force. with only 6 ? Reich defence units still in the Reich in February 1945; the others on the Ost front you can easily anticipate my figures on missions of 20/25 to 1 in 1945. It was a bloody slaughter of German youth !

I must agree.

However I never imagined it to be 10/12 to 1 in 44.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

It is crazy!

 

[DAVIDICUS]

I had always assumed it was about 5 or 6 to one as well.

25 to one? That means a flight of six would have faced 150. Hard to believe.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Not really if you think about it. Most Luftwaffe fighters were up to intercept the allied bombers and how many fighters were escorting and protecting them. In a flight of 500 bombers there was easily 75 to 100 fighters.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

And where 75 to 100 fighters flew escort for up to 500 bombers, there were only 3 to 4 German fighters to intercept?

Like I said, hard to believe. I had no idea the Germans had so few air to air resources late in the war.

 

[Soren]

By 45, the LW were REAL low in men 'and' material.

 

[DAVIDICUS]

I guess so. Going up against 5 to 1 odds let alone 25 to 1 odds sounds suicidal when your target is the bombers and you can't simultaneously play offense against the fighters while you're targeting the bombers (which pose a danger via their defensive armament as well).

The only thing going for you is your ability to cut and run (assuming the allied fighters prefer to maintain a defensive posture by staying with the bomber formation). Of course, they could always afford to chase after each retreating German fighter with 10 or 15 planes!

 

[plan_D]

Which they didn't. Roaming escort was always the best.

 

[Erich]

think about 1945 and the 8th AF Mustangs roaming down to Munich and or Prague and then having the US 15th AF Mustangs overlapping that territory as well along up to Berlin. the Luftwaffe had no hope of escape, plus maruading 9th AF P-47 pilots tired of ground attack were just waiting to get a chance at an enemy fighter ........... yes terrible odds indeed !

 

[lesofprimus]

Fuel fuel fuel....... It was all about that in early 1945... There'd be 25 Fw-190D's sitting on the tarmac, and fuel enough for 4 of them to intercept an incoming bomber stream......

I have read in a couple different books that the odds were upwards of 20-1 in certain circumstances, and even higher on the worst of days...

 

[mosquitoman]

I never realised the odds were stacked against the Luftwaffe that much, considering it now they performed miracles doing the damage that they actually did