P.59 project not cancelled in 1940 (Do335)

Discussion in 'Aviation' started by wiking85, Sep 16, 2012.

  1. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    #1 wiking85, Sep 16, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2012
    Dornier Do 335 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    What if the P.59 project had not been cancelled in 1940 and was designed around the pull-push layout that powered the Do335?
    The P.59 project was a high speed bomber project that would end up as an intruder aircraft, but could be adapted to all the roles filled by the Ju88, Bf110/Me210/Me410, and Ta154 or He219 historically and been faster than all of the above, while also taking about any engine for its front unit, while having to use a liquid cooled unit for its rear engine due to airflow issues.

    I think that it could have been ready in 1943 in the high speed bomber, heavy fighter, night fighter, and destroyer roles with others perhaps there after (all weather intruder, fighter-bomber, ground attack, etc.). It could have conceivably used wood in its construction for some roles like that of bomber, night fighter and heavy fighter. It had hard points for additional gear too, so could add on bombs or gun pods as needed.

    Basically it makes just about all of the two engine aircraft in the German arsenal redundant and can beat all of their performance too. So there won't be a need to manufacture the Me410 when its finally ready in 1943, nor the need for the various night fighter designs and can replace the aging Ju88 design.

    Obviously this wouldn't win Germany the war by any stretch, but it would help massively for pilot survivability in the critical year that the Allied fighters gutted the last of the Luftwaffe and bad aircraft killed so many new and experience pilots. Of course the air war was already turning against Germany by this point, as the constant raiding of flight schools of instructors for pilots, like over Stalingrad in 1942-3, since 1940 had badly degraded the already inadequate training programs early in the war, so the Luftwaffe was already suffering badly from attrition, but the tide hadn't totally turned until 1943-early 1944.

    Had this aircraft been available in operations at such a crucial point in the war, what would it have meant for the air war over Europe?
     
  2. tomo pauk

    tomo pauk Creator of Interesting Threads

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    The basic advantage of an push-pull plane is that it can make a performer even when using bread-and-butter engines (DB-601/605 in German case). IIRC the Do-335 was, on same power, some 100+ km/h faster than the Me-410, while being heavier?
     
  3. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    #3 wiking85, Sep 17, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2012
    Messerschmitt Me 410 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Dornier Do 335 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  4. wiking85

    wiking85 Well-Known Member

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    In the Destroyer role utilizing the DB603 engines the Do335, or the P.59 version of it would be pretty brutal in 1943. The P51D, which showed up in mid-1944 was 'only' 437mph (IIRC). As an intruder (Fern-nachtjäger?), used to attack the RAF bases or as a nightfigher (though not sure how it would mount a Lichtenstein set) it would also fill the role well.
    An issue that someone on another forum brought up that the Do335 needed an ejector seat, but it wasn't really perfected in 1943, but then AFAIK research wasn't really started on it until it was needed later in the war historically, so perhaps moving up the need would also move up the technological development?
    And it was mentioned that the Do335 historically had issues with corkscrewing, that is there was wobble in the aircraft from the propellors, though I don't have confirmation on that from other sources.
     
  5. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    I doubt that.

    Me-410A was a high speed precision bomber that was mostly employed as a bomber interceptor. If the Do-335 is produced from 1943 onward it will probably have a similiar fate.
     
  6. zoomar

    zoomar Member

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    One real advantage to an early green-light for the push-pull design is that it would allow the basic concept to be thoroughly tested and the kinks worked out in time for a workable production/operational version to be put in production in quantity. I've read that the Do335 suffered some porposing and directional instability that had to be accepted to get the plane fixed for production during the waning months of the war. I've also read on this board and others that there were other issues with the basic center-line thrust concept that there wasn't time to fix.

    I agree with Dave that, regardless of what the P.59 was designed to do, it would be primarily used as a bomber destroyer or night fighter when actually put in service (just like other high-speed multipurpose designs). Unless one presumes this one plane would lengthen the war and delay the allied bombing campaign, by 1943 Germany would have little choice.
     
  7. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    The nightfighter version,designated A-6 was described in "Baubeschreibung Nr. 1600-Dornier Nachtjager Do 335 A-6" of 20/11/44.
    It was to have quite a radio/radar suite.

    Lorenz FuG 15 radio transmitter/receiver

    GEMA FuG 25a Erstling IFF

    Lorenz FuG 125 Hermine radio beacon signal receiver

    Siemens FuG 120 Bernhardine beacon receiver and blind landing set

    Telefunken FuG 220 Lichtenstein SN-2 D airborne interception radar which was to be replace,eventually with the Siemens FuG 218 Neptun.

    Telefunken FuG 350 Zc Naxos passive radar (which homed in on H2S)

    Siemens FuG 101 precision radio altimetre.

    The aerials for the radar would be mounted on the wings,two for the lateral beams on the port side,two for the vertical beams on the starboard.

    Various prototypes were used in development of the A-6 (V10,M15,M16,M17). There were plans for Dornier-Werke Munchen to build 190 Do 335 A-6s but it never happened.

    The Do 335 did have a compressed air activated ejector seat. An explosive charge would blow off the tail fin and rear propeller in the event of an emergency. The pilot would then abandon the aircraft following a rather complicated procedure. The seat worked alright in theory,it was tested more than 200 times.

    In practice the first man to try it for real,Altrogge,was killed not because the seat failed but because his head struck the hood,rendering him unconcious.

    The second was Uffz. Bahlmann who decided to eject after the rear engine caught fire. He jettisoned the canopy which hit him on the head too. He was not knocked out and operated the ejector seat but nothing happened. He now attempted a forced landing but as the aircraft hit the runway the ejector seat went off,depositing him on the runway suffering severe injuries.

    A third and final attempt was made by Heinz Fischer on 26/4/45. This time neither the tail jettisoning mechanism nor the ejector seat worked but he managed to abandon the aircraft in the normal manner,surviving unscathed.

    Eric Brown was not impressed with the example he saw at Farnborough.

    "The Do 335.......had ejection seats fitted.I think possibly the drill for abandoning the aircraft was really something. One had on the starboard side,a row of buttons that looked like one sees on a Wurlitzer organ,and the pilot started of by going along this row of buttons from front to back. The first one pressed actuated explosive bolts that blew the back prop off with a resounding bang-away it went-then the next one pressed blew the top fin off. If by this time you hadn't wasted enough time being fascinated by this gadget the third one pressed blew you out of the aircraft,provided the hood had been jettisoned.This was a great flaw in the aeroplane,the hood was not released automatically..."

    Typically Brown hasn't got it quite right,but he never had to try it in practice.
    This was the procedure for abandoning the aircraft.

    1 Jettison the rear propeller and upper and lower fin.

    2 Unlock the canopy and jettison it.

    3 Disconnect the microphone.

    4 Move the handle on the right of the seat up to the first level.

    5 Straighten your back in the seat and put your feet on the edge of the seat.

    6 Move the handle on the seat to the up position and wait until you are clear of the aircraft.

    7 Step out of the seat.

    8 Open your parachute.

    Seems simple enough :)

    Steve
     
  8. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

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    It still isn't simple.

    I served on the U.S.S. American 1983 to 1985. One of our A-6 aircraft had a catapult malfunction which forced the crew to eject immediately after launch. One crew member survived ejection without injury. The other hit his head when ejecting and died.
     
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