P51D/K vs Me109K-14

[schwarzpanzer]

Sorry, I know a lot of people believe these are pointless, but I can't help thinking that, including pilot skill, the K-14 could 'have' a P51 interceptor.

A high climb rate, pressurized cockpit, 470+mph top speed, decent agility, experienced pilot and the (for me) ideal armament of 3x MG151's I find very impressive.8)

Then again the 'Tang was a beauty too...

Any thoughts?

 

[davparlr]

My info shows the K-14 of a max speed of 452 mph.

Also, this is the last Me-109, which came out later than the P-51D. If you compare this to its contemporary, the P-51H, it would come up 30 mph slower. Also, my sources say only two made it to the front.

 

[Udet]

schwarz, hello:

Are you referring to the K-4? That´s the version of the Kurfurst which saw the most service.

The K-14 did not reach production.

Now, the P-51 D could of course get chewed by the K-4. The P-51 K never saw action in the ETO.

My vote went for the the Bf 109, insisting that you might be referring to the K-4.

cheers!

 

[Erich]

yes the P-51K saw service over the Reich in 45, alongside the D model

 

[Jabberwocky]

schwarz, hello:

Are you referring to the K-4? That´s the version of the Kurfurst which saw the most service.

The K-14 did not reach production.

Now, the P-51 D could of course get chewed by the K-4. The P-51 K never saw action in the ETO.

My vote went for the the Bf 109, insisting that you might be referring to the K-4.

cheers!

A P-51K is just a P-51D built at the Dallas factory (instead of Inglewood) with a few slight differences, mostly the prop type I think.

Lots of P-51Ks saw action in the ETO. Your probably thinking of the P-51H, which didn't see deployment outside of the CONUS before the end of the war.

If it was a one-on-one fight, 190K vs P-51D, i'd prefer the 109K myself, particularly below 25,000 feet and in any sort of turning fight.

Its just as fast as a P-51D, climbs a lot better and accelerates and turns a bit better.

Squadron on squadron combat would be a little more difficult to judge, as it comes down to co-operative tactics and advantage more than plane performance.

Don't forget that the P-51D/K had some advantages of it own: better visibility, a gyroscopic gunsight, stronger construction and USAAF pilots were starting to recieve G-suits at the time.

 

[Erich]

paddle blade height and width, tail fin and sometimes the canopy were the differences in the K vs D model according to vets. there were not a lot of K's given over to the 8th AF. On average less than a dozen per squadron and in fact some squads used the D till wars end.

not real sure where this debate is going to go as the K-14 is a bogus a/c. even the last ditch wooden tail K-4 did nothing to appease the tide of overwhelming suppiority in US man power and machines and with that don't even try to come up with tech specs to work it out which the better a/c at any given altitude. Go buy a couple of late war Luftwaffe books and read for yourself, but the time the K-4 was in it's limited production, flying for Germany was suicidal

 

[Udet]

Sorry, my mistake.

I must have mingled the P-51 H somehow here.

The 78th FG had some P-51 Ks indeed, but if i recall correctly there were not avialable in significant numbers.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Well in this case I truely think it would depend on pilot skill. By the way the K-14 was never built Schwarzpanzer, accept for maybe a test varient.

 

[Glider]

I went with the P51. Most of the reports that I have read would give the advantage to the 109 at speeds up to 250, between 250-300mph nothing in it, but over that the P51 seems to have the advantage. The 109's controls get very heavy over 300 and most reports state that you need two hands on the stick to get any meaningfull maneuverability.
So keep your speed up and my money is on the P51.

 

[Twitch]

It would be all pilot and whoever pulled the right manuever at the luckiest time even if pilots were "equal" in skill. It's not even knowing tricks it's when you choose to use one over another one at an opportune time.

 

[Soundbreaker Welch?]

Yeah the P-51 could really let it rip out the best when attacking at very high speeds. But at low speeds........

It could get flamed a lot easier.

But the Bf certainly got a lot of whopings in some major dogfights. Look at the Battle of Britain when it actually outclassed the Spitfire in many ways but still took quite a pounding.

 

[book1182]

You all are forgetting that it doesn't matter what the performance chart said. Most planes don't even come close to that chart. I would say that if you took the average maintenance for each aircraft provided by that ground crew I would have to go with the P-51. I think the pilot skill, maintenance provided, and similar performance give the P-51 the slight edge.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I dont think you can go off pilot skill. The Luftwaffe still had many many great pilots with lots of combat skill. German Maintenance Provided was never lacking, there mechanics were very good and trained very well.

 

[Glider]

By the time we are talking about the average pilot in the Luftwaffe wasn't nearly as well trained as the USA or even British pilots. By the end of 1944 new German Pilots had less than half the flying hours of Allied pilots. Also more of their training was done on obsolete aircraft.
Experienced German pilots who had survived the carnage of the early years were the best and well able to add to their kills, but even these were wounded or killed one at a time.
There was nothing wrong with the mechanics they were as good as any, being well trained and experienced.

 

[loomaluftwaffe]

Workmanship with the K-4 wasn't as good, I've heard of pilots with 20mins of training getting into Ta152s, but the Luft still had their Experten

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I agree though with the way you said it. The Experten and the experienced pilots (which there were still plenty of in 1944, not as many as 1942 or whatever, but there were still plenty) were something to be reckoned with but by the end of 1944 the bulk of the Luftwaffe was made up of inexperienced pilots that were basically thrown into the cockpit, hell in 1945 the Hitler Jugend was even flying planes. I have heard they were flying He-162s as well.

Now that I think about the Maintenance as well, late 1944 and 1945 spare parts were just not available so many aircraft were canabalized and even flying on aircraft that were not quite ready for combat.

So now that I think about it more, I can agree with what you are saying somewhat.

 

[Brain32]

Hi all, first post here Well I would put this situation like this; P51 would most certanly be able to put off BF109K away from it's bombers, but in any prolonged fight, especially if they go low and slow I would give a slight advantage to the 109K. P51 was not exactly known as the most stable fighter at low speed, so I think 109 with it's leading edge slats and excellent low speed manouverbility would really be in advantage, if P51 pilot would slow down that is. Ofcourse this is in case of "sterile" 1vs1 situation which I guess couldn't happen in RL. All in all I would say a draw.

 

[plan_D]

In reality, given the situation of the war, the Bf-109K would rise up with three or four wingmen to meet twenty to fifty P-51Ds. While any Bf-109K was chasing a P-51D to bring him down, there would be four on his own tail.

The Bf-109K is going to win a one on one dogfight, however.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Exactly. The P-51D was really no better than any other of the top fighters out there at the time. It was a great escort fighter with its range but in the end the only thing that made it stand out was the fact that it was in such huge numbers and could overpower the enemy in those numbers, just as plan_D just said.

 

[loomaluftwaffe]

what happenned anyways when a model is phased out for a later one... like where did all the Bf109Es go when the Gs went into service? they were sent to the scrap metal?