Polish AF: preparing for 1939

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davebender said:
6 May 1935. P-36 prototype first flight.
1937. P-36 wins USAAC fighter aircraft competition.

P-36 was dirt cheap ($23,000 each) and it just won the 1937 U.S. fighter competition.
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P-36 wasn't "dirt cheap" in the late 1930s, at least not for nations buying it as the Hawk 75. In 1938, the French were appalled when Curtis quoted them a unit price for the Hawk 75 A-1 of nearly twice that of the MS 406. The price difference even led to the French Purchasing Commission delaying their Hawk 75 purchase until the first MB 150 took to the air, to see if it was a viable option. Even with two year's work, the MB 150's unit price was about half that of the Hawk 75.

The P-36 may have cost $23,000 for the USAAF - I've newer seen an official contract price - but Curtis was charging a lot more to export customers.

The 24 Hawk 75s sold to Thailand went for about $27,700, plus the cost of purchasing a manufacturing licence. However, these were simplified variants with fixed landing gear and other changes, so aren't really representative.

In 1939, the Finns were offered 15 Curtiss Hawk 75s at a unit price of $47,500 for 15 or $45,500 for 30. At the same time the P-40 was about $60,000 for and the P-39 was about $75,000 for the USAAF.

The Norwegian Hawk 75 A-8s were about $81,000 apiece.

There's no reason Poland couldn't purchase some aircraft followed by license production. Just replace the American machineguns with a pair of Madsen 20mm aircraft cannon.
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Trying to get a par of Madsen or Oerlikons - which is what the Polish used - into the Hawk 75 without doing a major rework of either the wing or the cowling is probably a futile effort. There isnt enough room between the wing spars for anything with a longer breech than the .30s, unless you want to cut even bigger holes in the spars. To fit them in the cowling, you'd need to relocate the oil tank and punch holes in the engine firewall, and possibly have to lengthen the entire nose/engine mounting.
 
A lot of times the price quotes for USAAF contracts were for the airframe ONLY. Engine, propeller, guns, radio, oxogne equipment etc were government furnished equipment. Sometimes the export planes had an all inclusive price or at least included the price of a flyable plane even if it didn't include guns or radio. But P-36s were NOT 'dirt cheap'. You probably couldn't get a Cyclone 9 engine for under $10,000 in the 30s new.
 
P-35 might have been a more realisitic acquisition for the Poles. the last thing you want your air force to be doing is trying to bed down a new type 2-4 months before they enter the fight for their lives.

Even for the P-35 to be delivered, the Poles would have been lucky. The P-35A, the domestic version, was delivered 1937/8 with 77 deivered. The 60 Swedish J-5s incorporated changes that delayed delivery until early 1940....to late to help

The P-35A had the following characterisitcs

Performance
Maximum speed: 290 mph (252 knots, 467 km/h) at 12,000 ft (3,660 m)
Cruise speed: 260 mph (226 knots, 418 km/h)
Range: 950 mi (826 nmi, 1,530 km)
Service ceiling: 31,400 ft (9,570 m)
Rate of climb: 1,920 ft/min (9.8 m/s)
Wing loading: 27.8 lb/ft² (135.8 kg/m²)
Power/mass: 0.172 hp/lb (0.282 kW/kg)

Armament

Guns: 2x 0.30 in machine guns; 2x 0.50 in machine guns
Bombs: up to 350 lb (160 kg) of bomb


The P-36 would have been too late for the Poles. The first Hawk 75A-1 arrived in France in December 1938 and began entering service in March 1939, but not complete until the end of the year. After the first few examples, aircraft were delivered in pieces and assembled in France, and this took time

The first production P-36As were delivered to the 20th Pursuit Group at Barksdale Field in Louisiana in April 1938. The aircraft's service history was marred by numerous teething problems with the engine exhaust, skin buckling over landing gear, and weak points in the airframe, severely restricting the performance envelope. By the time these issues were resolved, the P-36 was considered obsolete and was relegated to training units and overseas detachments. the US did not receive a decent version of the P-36 until 1941....
 
Facts are there are no real foreign supplies of aircraft that can be reliably assumed as available


(Edit)

Options that might have worked or helped was a collaborative effort with other nations. the most obvious might have been a collaborative effort to licence build and improve the One option that might have been the Avia B 534 biplane, which had the following characterisitcs

Performance
Maximum speed: 405 km/h (252 mph; 219 kn) at 4,400 m (14,436 ft)
Cruising speed: 345 km/h (214 mph; 186 kn)
Range: 580 km (360 mi; 313 nmi)
Service ceiling: 10,600 m (34,777 ft)
Rate of climb: 15.1 m/s (2,970 ft/min)
Time to altitude: 5,000 m (16,404 ft) in 4 minutes 28 seconds
Wing loading: 90.2 kg/m² (18.5 lb/sq ft)
Power/mass: 0.292 kW/kg (0.178 hp/lb)

Armament

Guns: 4× 7.92 mm (0.312 in) Mk 30 (Česká zbrojovka Strakonice) machine guns with 250-300 rpg
Bombs: 6× 10 kg (22 lb) or 4x 20 kg (44 lb) bombs


The Czech had developed a were working on a cannon armed version of this aircraft. It was introduced in 1933, and was a type that could have been licence built in Poland fairly easily. Poland might have been able to refine the design and het maybe another 10-20 mph out of the design if they worked at it.

This compares to the P-11Cs performance of

Performance
Maximum speed: 390 km/h (242 mph; 211 kn) at 5,000 m (16,404 ft), 300 km/h (186 mph) at sea level
Stall speed: 98 km/h (61 mph; 53 kn)
Range: 700 km (435 mi; 378 nmi)
Service ceiling: 8,000 m (26,247 ft) absolute ceiling 11,000 m (36,089 ft)
Time to altitude:
5,000 m (16,404 ft) in 6 minutes
7,000 m (22,966 ft) in 13 minutes

Wing loading: 91.1 kg/m² (18.7 lb/sq ft)
Power/mass: 0.279 kW/kg (0.166 hp/lb)

Armament

Guns:
P.11a,b,c - 2 x 7.92 mm (0.312 in) KM Wz 33 or KM Wz 37 machine guns with 500rpg.[8]
P.11c - optionally an extra 2 × 7.92 mm (0.312 in) KM Wz 33 machine guns with 300rpg.
P.11f - 4 x 7.92 mm (0.312 in) FN Browning machine guns.
P.11g - 4 x 7.92 mm (0.312 in) KM Wz 36 machine guns.

so they woud have been slightly beter off building the B534 over their own P-11s. The B-534 led to the B-35, which was still at protoype by September 1939.

Another possibility was the yugoslav IK-2, which was seamlessly developed into the IK-3. The IK-2 was intersting, and offered some improvemenent over the standards P-11 mount. its charact4risitics included

General characteristics
Crew: 1
Length: 7.88 m (25 ft 10 in)
Wingspan: 11.4 m (37 ft 5 in)
Height: 3.42 m (11 ft 3 in)
Wing area: 18 m2 (190 sq ft)
Empty weight: 1,502 kg (3,311 lb)
Gross weight: 1,857 kg (4,094 lb)
Powerplant: 1 × Hispano-Suiza 12Ycrs V-12 liquid-cooled piston engine, 642 kW (861 hp)
Propellers: 3-bladed adjustable pitch

Performance
Maximum speed: 435 km/h (270 mph; 235 kn) at 5,000 m (16,404 ft)
Cruising speed: 250 km/h (155 mph; 135 kn)
Range: 700 km (435 mi; 378 nmi)
Service ceiling: 12,000 m (39,370 ft)
Wing loading: 107 kg/m² (22 lb/sq ft)

Armament

1 × 20 mm Hispano-Suiza HS.404 cannon with 60 rounds
2 × 7.92 mm Darne machine guns
 
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parsifal said:
Facts are there are no real foreign supplies of aircraft that can be reliably assumed as available
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What's the problem with (more) Hurricanes? Aside from being a rather 11th Hour option, I can't see a realistic option that would offer better results.
 
Canada began receiving Hurricanes September 1938, South Africa by November 1938, Yugoslavia by December 1938 ... so it was possible.
 
I think within the time frame that the Polish had the best option would have been the PZL P24 as there was nothing better available. The PZL P24 wasn't badly armed and like the Gladiator and CR42 while slower than the Bf109 was quite difficult to shoot down due to their manoeuravabilty.
 
Greyman said:
What's the problem with (more) Hurricanes? Aside from being a rather 11th Hour option, I can't see a realistic option that would offer better results.
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because the poles are short of cash and will not be able to afford enough hurricanes to make a difference.

As the french found when they started buying American equipment to supplement their own indigenous stuff, it cost roughly twice as much for each foreign aircraft as the indigenous stuff.

moreover, youare only robbing peter to pay paul if you draw on the hurricane reserves. and for poland to survive,or make any difference at all, you need action from the two westen powers.

and there are viable alternatives in the east anyway. aircraft that, with a little improvement will give the germans a run for their money.

aircraft like the Avia, the yugoslav IK-3 and a few others. in sufficient numbers, given the obvious superiority of the polish pilots, the germans might be delayed. if they are delayed long enough (about 2 months), the weather moves in, and buys a couple of months for the poles, time enough for the allies to do something to stop hitlers rise
 
Pars, if the Avia B534, why not the Gloster Gladiator? The performance is similar if not quite as sharp as the Avia but with hindsight the Gloster was combat proven and experienced some notable success vs the Germans and Russians..

Performance
Maximum speed: 407 km/h (253 mph; 220 kn) at 4,400 m (14,500 ft)
Cruising speed: 338km/h (210 mph; 183 kn)
Range: 580 km (~400 mi; 348 nmi)
Service ceiling: 10,000 m (32,800 ft)
Rate of climb: 11.7 m/s (2,300 ft/min)
Time to altitude: 3,050 m (10,000 ft) in 4.75 minutes

I guess the question is, would it be easier (cheaper available in greater numbers than the Avia)
 
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p-24 is an option,but it is not good enough to make a difference. And the first thing to do is to think of a way of amassing the capital to expand their fighters, not buy a couple of dozen foreign crates at the last minute that will not make a difference.

what i would suggest, is the stuff of magic, of perfect hindsight. It would never happen, but it just demonstrates that the potential was there for an upset.

The primary issue has nothing to do with technology or skill, or the will to fight. poles were the best airmen in europe, bar none,and they had a fighting spirit that puts many other nations to shame. they deserved better than what they got. And they could have if they had started 5-8 years before the conflagaration hit them and had the benefit of perfect foresight. Polish industry had the capacity to produce aircraft, but the poles lacked the money to develop a new fighter, and then produce it.

So the first thing to do is to find a means of raising money. i think that source comes from two areas, the polish bomber program, and the polish naval expansion programs, both of which were a waste of money in the context of the 1939 battle

The Polish six year rearmament program lavaished money on the Polish navy from 1934 onwards, for no real gain.all they received from it was 3 DDs, 4 subs 17 small ships and some build up of the naval shipyard. i dont know how much this amounted to, but its a fair bit. i also dont know how how much they spent on thir bombers, but i know of at least two types; one of which was developed and deployed, and the other almost ready. scrap these programs, or divert R&D lavished on them into a fighte development program and you should be able to start augmenting the p-11s with something decent by 1937-8. Im guessing that the savings pointed out might be the equivalent of about 200 fighter. 200 new fighters, like the ik-3, or the avia type, plus the 150 older fighters already available, will be something to think about. not enough to win, but enough to give the germans a bit of a bloody nose. after all, if 600 british fighters could do unspeakable things to 2000 german aircraft a year later, why cant 350 Polish fighters, with better pilots and some modern equipment do evil things to 1200 german aircraft in 1939?

And, if the germans are stopped or checked, there is a good chance the russians might not attack either. After all, they only attacked after september 17, when it was obvious th poles were on their knees. Avoid that situation, and it is at least arguable that the russians wont have the stomach to stab the poles in the back
 
As of Sept 1939 497 Hurricanes had been delivered ( to the RAF or including exports?) Of the exports 12 were to Yugoslavia, 20 to Canada, Belgium 20, Romania 12, Turkey 15 and South Africa just 3. Were this delivered in full batches or part shipments.

First metal wing Hurricane flies on 28th April of 1939. The provision of two position or constant speed props may also be a problem. The Constant speed almost certainly.

Of course the Germans have a lot fewer cannon armed 109s in Poland too.
 

you ave to look at two things. firstly, and most importantly, the produceability in Poland. im not suggesting a program of foreign mports....thats a dead end IMO. It has to be something within the grasp of polish industry to build.

gladiator fits that bill, but its the second factor that i think rules out the gladiator. what was the development potential of the the gladiator v the avia. Adopting the earlier Avia design should give the Poles the option of co-develping the B-35 with the czechs,and bringing its completion forwad by a year or so. I dont see similar possibilities developingor arising with the gloster design

Avia B.35 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Shortround6 said:
Of course the Germans have a lot fewer cannon armed 109s in Poland too.
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From memory they deployed just 200 109s against Poland, and half of those were older Jumo powered ones (ie. all-MG equipped) Of course the Germans could divert a lot more from Home Defense but it shows that you do not need so many fighters to make life for the Luftwaffe much more difficult.

The major problem is that you do not need to counter German fighters, you need to counter German bombers. And compared to the historic Polish fighters, those were far too fast and far too tough to shoot down. Since those were easily doing 400-430 km/h at the time, anything below a minium 470-500 km/h enabling reliable interception is a waste of money IMHO.
 
Another avenue of possibility might be the Fokker designs. A big constraint for the Poles was engine availability. The Poles were licence producing the Bristol Mercury with two principal subtypes evident in theor P-11a to c subtypes

1 × Bristol Mercury V.S2 9-cyl. air-cooled radial piston engine, 420 kW (560 shp) or 1x 481 kW (645 hp) Polish Skoda Works Mercury VI.S2

For their stop gap P-11g, which was first considered 1937, but did not fly until August 1939, they were building the much improved Mercury VIII with much improved power output of 840HP. The Mercury VIII had first appeared in 1935-6 in England, but Im not entirely sure of its availability in Poland. Assuming circa 1936, that presents some possibilities for the Poles. Makes me think two possible licence production types, the DXXI and the GI, both Fokker types, and both utilising the later Mercury engine. The Twin engined Fokker had 26 examples ready for export to Spain in 1938, but blocked export to that country at the last minute. The GI had first appeared at the paris air show in 1936 as a private venture, so its availability is not in question. The real question is whether Fokker would allow its licence production in Poland. I think quite possibly. Slightly larger and more powerful versions of the fokker twin fought with some distinction in 1940 over Holland, so it should do quite well against the unescorted bomber formations that were the norm over Poland. it also had some limited fighter Bomber capabilities, which might give the Poles some flexibility in providing Ground Support.


The other Fokker possibility is the DXXI, also powered by the Mercury. It was available for service entry by the beginning of 1938, and was licence built allover the place. It could have been available even earlier, possibly from mid-37, except the Dutch air force initially cancelled its order.

It had a respectable performance, and in its career did quite well, but at 267 mph, would have struggled in a stand up fight against the Me 109e. However it uses existing or available engine technology, and the scope for the Poles to fit retractbale undercarriage is obvious. With retracts and the 840 HP engine, it would probably achieve around 300 mph which isnt outstanding, but a lot better than the P-11. The Fokker was also designed to be as cheap as possible, which probably puts the cost per copy at around $15K per copy in 1940 USD

With the P-11s retained, the navy program curtailed, and the bomber proam cancelled, the Poles should have little difficulty building up a respectable force of G1s (with bombs) and DXXI (with retracts) by the beginning of 1939. Time enough to work up the force and have it well and trully ready for combat on time.
 
Lets remember that Czechoslavakia and Poland had actually fought each other over disputed border territories and were traditionally not on the best of terms between the wars. The PZL P24 was a faster aircraft with heavier armament than the Avia B534 biplane, the PZL P24 while not being a fast aircraft was fast enough to catch all German bombers with the exception of the JU88 and when it caught them unlike the Avia B534 it had the all important cannon rather than machine guns to fire at them. I don't understand why or how Poland would approach the Czechs under these circumstances.
 
Polands engine supplies were from Skoda works in warsaw (I think it was Warsaw). dont doubt that relations migt be strained at times, particualalry after Poland participated in its final dismemberment, but relations before that were not too bad, or at least, not bad enough to stop collboration, as the manufacture of engines in Poland clearly shows.
 
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