Post-BoB: workable options for Luftwaffe

[tomo pauk]

...both short- and long-term, in terms of technology, startegy, tactics, armament, whole aicraft, logistics (this one will be a killer). There is no option 'we throw in the towel'
Changes can start from October of 1940 (rougly post BoB). War continues as historically, with Op. Barbarossa, attack at P.H. and SE Asia etc.

 

[Admiral Beez]

...both short- and long-term, in terms of technology, startegy, tactics, armament, whole aicraft, logistics (this one will be a killer). There is no option 'we throw in the towel'
Changes can start from October of 1940 (rougly post BoB). War continues as historically, with Op. Barbarossa, attack at P.H. and SE Asia etc.

Finish off Britain before going to Russia. If you can't beat Britain, you'll never beat Russia.

 

[herman1rg]

Early development of a decent strategic bomber.

 

[Glider]

Consolidate the victories in Europe and build up the infrastructure such as fully integrating the French and Dutch aviation industries. Get the French tank and truck production factories working on modern German designs. Replace the Ju52 with a modern transport as the war against Russia is primarily a logistics war and a strategic bomber.

Do nothing to upset the USA and even think about ceasing operations against the UK. The UK can do nothing against Europe apart from air raids and if your lucky the appeasers in the UK will overthrow Churchill and Lease Lend will not be implemented.

Then in Spring 1942 attack Russia with the first target being the Oil Fields.

 

[tomo pauk]

I'd 1st take out the trash. No Me 210/410 sorry saga, and no He 177 (I'm not sure if a removal of dive bomb requirement and switch to 4 individual engines buys anything, even though that should involve less risk). Dial down Bf 110 production, make night fighters version(s) of them exclusively. Use the DB 601s/605s saved to improve 1-engined fighter production, ship a number of those engines in Italy. The Fw 190 + DB 601N/E/605A can produce an useful long range fighter.
No Jumo 222, BMW stops at 801. Scour the French machine tools from engine companies and ship them to Germany/Austria/Bohemia. Recall the 2-stage supercharged engines from 1930s (Bristol, Jumo) and have engine companies + DLV to design 2-stage superchargers for DB 601/605, Jumo 211, BMW 801 (this could use an improved 1-stage S/C as it did historically, but too late).
Have companies submit proposals for jets - 1-engined fighter and 2-engined bomber/recon.

 

[jetcal1]

I'd 1st take out the trash. No Me 210/410 sorry saga, and no He 177 (I'm not sure if a removal of dive bomb requirement and switch to 4 individual engines buys anything, even though that should involve less risk). Dial down Bf 110 production, make night fighters version(s) of them exclusively. Use the DB 601s/605s saved to improve 1-engined fighter production, ship a number of those engines in Italy. The Fw 190 + DB 601N/E/605A can produce an useful long range fighter.
No Jumo 222, BMW stops at 801. Scour the French machine tools from engine companies and ship them to Germany/Austria/Bohemia. Recall the 2-stage supercharged engines from 1930s (Bristol, Jumo) and have engine companies + DLV to design 2-stage superchargers for DB 601/605, Jumo 211, BMW 801 (this could use an improved 1-stage S/C as it did historically, but too late).
Have companies submit proposals for jets - 1-engined fighter and 2-engined bomber/recon.

Are you saying rationalize your engine and aircraft development to maximize resources?
One other thing as well. If the rumors (Rumours for you Euro types.) were true, that Messerschmidt designs were chosen over competitors for personal and not professional reasons........squelch that immediately!

On a strategic note? Finish up North Africa before moving East and keep an eye out in Poland in case the rumo(u)rs that Stalin is thinking about invading are true.

 

[Shortround6]

Fix the He 111 and forget the exotic bombers.
The Luftwaffe gave up on the 111 about the time the US went from the B-17D to the B-17E. Or about the time the British introduced the Wellington MK III (Hercules engines).

 

[The Basket]

Battle of Britain 2 in May 1941 will face the same issues as the year before without any of the advantages.

Still cannot invade and still have the same vulnerability as before.

I will say that war with UK is naval war and not air war and so there is no Luftwaffe answer to this question. And building a navy to rival the Royal Navy ain't happening.

Without a successful invasion or naval blockade then even if you had arial superiority over Kent again is meaningless if you don't do anything with it.

 

[tomo pauk]

Fix the He 111 and forget the exotic bombers.
The Luftwaffe gave up on the 111 about the time the US went from the B-17D to the B-17E. Or about the time the British introduced the Wellington MK III (Hercules engines).

Any particular proposals for upgrading the He 111? BMW 801 installation, coupled with better defensive firepower?
OTOH, a decent escort fighter should help a good deal.

 

[Shortround6]

Any particular proposals for upgrading the He 111? BMW 801 installation, coupled with better defensive firepower?
OTOH, a decent escort fighter should help a good deal.

801s, better Jumos.

Yes a better dorsal gun set up. It was always going to need escort fighters. but better defensive guns can only help, you already have the crew and the manual gun positions.

Maybe extend the wing tips a few feet, increase the Gross weight. I don't know if games could be played with the bomb bay.

 

[Glider]

The He111 was at the peak of its development almost from the start of the war. The He111P was little ifferent from the last versions and reling on a few extra guns would have made little if any difference. A whole new aircraft was needed and the main item lacking from the Luftwaffe bomber wise was a strategic bomber. The Do217 and Ju88 developments were worth while but the time of the He111 was over

 

[The Basket]

Long range maritime strike aircraft is a must. With guided missile.

Trying to make the He-111 better is not an answer to most questions unless you want a better version than earlier versions.

Problem here is that the Luftwaffe did not much wrong and therefore it can't be improved.

But here's my 2p

More maritime strike and recon
Ditch the jets.
More V1 and less V2
Scrap He-177 early doors.
Bf-109 needs replacing 1944 maybe the Italians can help with that.
Night fighters and plenty of them
Ju-52 is not needing replacement if you can churn em out.

 

[jetcal1]

For bombers?
Reverse engineer the B-24 or the Lancaster. That fixes the bomber and the maritime strike problem.

 

[Shortround6]

The He111 was at the peak of its development almost from the start of the war. The He111P was little ifferent from the last versions and reling on a few extra guns would have made little if any difference. A whole new aircraft was needed and the main item lacking from the Luftwaffe bomber wise was a strategic bomber. The Do217 and Ju88 developments were worth while but the time of the He111 was over

The HE 111 never got the better engines. It ended it's career (except for the H-23 variant) using pretty much the same engines it was using in 1940.
Let's Imagine the British building Wellingtons in 1944 using under 1100hp Pegasus engines. Then we could claim the Wellington hit the peak of it's development almost from the start of the war.

The Luftwaffe had a strategic bomber. It was the He 111. It could reach a good part of England from Germany, it could hit a large part of France from Germany (excepting the coast of the southern part of the Bay of Biscay and the western part of the Spanish/French border.) it could hit most of Poland and any other targets in the Balkans. What else did they need to hit in 1939/40? After The fall of the France the He 111 could hit Northern Ireland, How much further west do you need to go?
The whole "Ural" bomber program was a waste, just look at a map.

It is almost 200 miles further from MInsk to Chelyabinsk (Tankograd) than it is from London to Minsk. 1340 miles from Minsk to Chelyabinsk and this requires the Germans to capture Minsk and be able to supply the air fields there in any planning done before the summer of 1941.

How effective was anything short of a B-29 operating at a 1300 mile radius? What would it take to supply hundreds of German almost B-29s in Russia East of Minsk?

 

[The Basket]

WW2 was a numbers game.
How many Bf 109 Do we need? 100,000
How many He 111 do we need? 100,000
How many Ju 88 do we we need? You guessed it...100,000.

So unless you can build trillions of Bf 109 then you're in trouble.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Battle of Britain 2 in May 1941 will face the same issues as the year before without any of the advantages.

Still cannot invade and still have the same vulnerability as before.

I will say that war with UK is naval war and not air war and so there is no Luftwaffe answer to this question. And building a navy to rival the Royal Navy ain't happening.

Without a successful invasion or naval blockade then even if you had arial superiority over Kent again is meaningless if you don't do anything with it.

Then if Britain can't be beaten, then the LW must focus on defeating Russia. That means more aircraft, fewer duplicate types, etc. Larger and more transport aircraft.

 

[Admiral Beez]

WW2 was a numbers game.
How many Bf 109 Do we need? 100,000

100,000, impossible. But had the Germans ramped up production in 1939 to 1942 they might have got close to 50,000 Bf 109s. This is the biggest error of the Luftwaffe and RLM (Reichsluftfahrtministerium) that they didn't go to war production levels until the after the war was essentially lost in 1942/3.

Messerschmitt Bf 109 - Wikipedia

 

[tomo pauk]

Possible candidates for fast-ish German bombers:
-Early Ju 288 + BMW 801. The bombers was designed around a decent bomb bay and fuel tanks, so it does not need to carry big bombs outside, like the Ju 88 did.
- Focke Wulf & Kurt Tank make an all-metal 2-engined bomber instead of the Ta-154
- He 219 designed as a bomber instead as a night fighter.
- Jet bomber, but that is 1944.

Obviously, each of those can benefit with better supercharging of their engines.

 

[swampyankee]

Surrender?

 

[Admiral Beez]

Surrender?

No need. France and Norway both surrender in Jun. 1940, giving Germany both the oil resources it needs and a secure western border. By July 1940 Germany has already signed an armistice with the Vichy government in France. Germany need only declare a unilateral ceasefire, withdraw its troops from occupied France and request for armistice terms with Britain. If France is now officially "free" and Hitler can coerce Mussolini to accept the armistice and stay out of British and French North Africa, Churchill's nascent government won't survive such a move.

Then, with no threat from France or Britain, Germany can regroup the Luftwaffe and focus on the coming invasion of the USSR.