Prototypes used in combat.

GregP · Oct 15, 2013

Methinks you are correct, DerAdler. They were there in Italy but were not allowed to particiate.

At least the Brit jets got to attack V-1's.

I am not sure what the 2 P-80's that were sent to the UK did. It's possible they might have been useful, but I am not the one to verify it as fact. I only know 4 were sent, 2 went to Italy and 2 to the UK. I do believe all 4 got back to the states after the war, but am not sure of that. Just seem to recall that as a fact from years ago.

GrauGeist · Oct 15, 2013

For the record, not all came home:
At RAF Burtonwood, a YP-80 (44-83026) suffered an engine fire and crashed, killing it's pilot, Maj. Borsodi on 28 January 1945

Two YP-80s were stationed at Lessina, Italy with the 1st FG...supposedly there to hunt for Ar234 recon aircraft but no enemy aircraft were ever encountered.

Milosh · Oct 15, 2013

Serial numbers:

44-83023 Lockheed YP-80A Shooting Star
c/n 080-1002

44-83024 Lockheed XF-14 Shooting Star
c/n 080-1003
Originally YP-80A No 2, redesignated during production. Destroyed in mid-air collision with B-25J 44-29120 near Muroc AB Dec 6, 1944.
All crew on both planes killed.

44-83025/83035 Lockheed YP-80A Shooting Star
c/n 080-1004/1014
83025 crashed Oct 20, 1944 Burbank, CA, killing Milo Burcham.
83026 crashed Burtonwood, England, killing pilot Maj. Frederick Borsodi
83027 fitted with Rolls-Royce Nene. Damaged beyond repair in accident Nov 14, 1945.

USAAC/USAAF/USAF Fighter Aircraft

pattle · Oct 15, 2013

Meteors were used towards the end of the war over Germany but by this time the Germans had very few aircraft and the Meteors were used to attack ground targets such as airfields, I think I have heard of these Meteors having shot down one or two communication type planes such as Siebels but I'm not sure about it, anyway they were not prototypes just very early production models and not as refined as the ones later produced.

parsifal · Oct 16, 2013

Germany was not short of production, but they did suffer a shortage of spare parts, and suffered appalling attrition rates to non combat causes. Hence the shortage of aircraft. But this ought not be overstated. What germany suffered from in 1944 was two things, a shortage of trained, experienced pilots and fuel. The two fed off each other. Because they lacked the fuel and the pilots to fly conventionally, they would sometimes fly high performance individual aircraft in the forlorn hope that this might somehow disrupt the unrelenting grinding pressure being put on them. A kind of variation to the hitler "miracle weapon" school of thinking. Hopeless deranged thinking, devoid of any reality, but there you have german wartime leadership in a nutshell.

pattern14 · Oct 18, 2013

pattle said:
Meteors were used towards the end of the war over Germany but by this time the Germans had very few aircraft and the Meteors were used to attack ground targets such as airfields, I think I have heard of these Meteors having shot down one or two communication type planes such as Siebels but I'm not sure about it, anyway they were not prototypes just very early production models and not as refined as the ones later produced.

I looked pretty hard to see if Meteors actually did down anything with a pilot, but nothing has come up. One was outflown by a Fiesler Storch, of all things, and it landed and the crew got out and took cover, allowing the Meteor to strafe it while on the ground. As for the P-80, they really had a poor run initially, and I believe they were grounded at the end of the conflict anyway, although I can't quote the source I read it from. As like any prototype aircraft, danger went hand in hand with testing. Many a German pilot was killed checking out their new jets as well. The He 162 was notorious for this.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Oct 18, 2013

pattle said:
Meteors were used towards the end of the war over Germany but by this time the Germans had very few aircraft and the Meteors were used to attack ground targets such as airfields, I think I have heard of these Meteors having shot down one or two communication type planes such as Siebels but I'm not sure about it, anyway they were not prototypes just very early production models and not as refined as the ones later produced.

No Meteors engaged any enemy aircraft during WW2. All aircraft destroyed by the Meteor were on ground attacks (unless you count the V-1 as an aircraft).

Milosh · Oct 18, 2013

Well the V-1 did fly and could be more dangerous to engage than some other a/c.

GregP · Oct 19, 2013

Very true. A tough opponent atht was fast enough and deadly enough to get your attention.

cherry blossom · Oct 20, 2013

There is a Japanese example as the prototype Kawasaki Ki-61 happened to be flying when the Dolittle Raid occured on April 18, 1942. According to Pacific Wrecks - Kawasaki Ki-61 Type 3 Fighter Hein (Tony) - Technical Information, Lt. Umekawa attacked a B-25 but had to break off due to lack of fuel and problems with his guns. The B-25s crew reported the sighting, and this was mistakenly interpreted as evidence that the Japanese were importing or producing copies of the Me 109.

Waynos · Oct 20, 2013

Fitting the title, if not the spirit, of this thread, XZ450, the prototype Sea Harrier was used in the Falkands when every available airframe was despatched there.

Elmas · Oct 24, 2013

Not exactly a prototipe but......
From an Interview of Luigi Gorrini, M.O.V.M., Italian Pilot

One day, just after the bombing of Rome , it comes the new that they wanted to deliver a new Macchi to our squadron, a 205. There was a
fight on who was up to drive the new machine and , thanks to the number of kills already achieved , I managed to win. They gave me a ticket and I
went to the North by train to pick up the new plane : as soon I saw the new machine I asked some explanations. " What do I have to explain ?" said the test Pilot , in his Roman accent "this is always a 202……. One thing : if it happens to shoot, do not shoot with all weapons simultaneously, otherwise the recoil is too strong. Fire with the20 mm , or 12.7, not with both . "
But I never followed his advice, and I always shot with all weapons as if goes, it goes and I was still insisting for more information: "It 's 202 , go and fly it ! ... " cut short the test Pilot . As soon I was up I did realized that the engine was more powerful….. At my arrival in Cerveteri came towards me the Maggiore Camarga: " Gorrini , you 're off tomorrow ." And I: "Maggiore, I will mount the alarm every day until I will have a fight with this machine! " That plane lasted 48 hours!"
Etc.

http://www.eaf51.org/newweb/Documenti/Storia/Gorrini.pdf

mhuxt · Oct 24, 2013

W4051 was the PR Mossie prototype, 2nd Mossie ever built - it went on to the PRU, then 521 Sqn (weather recce), then back to 540 Sqn (photo recce), then finally on to 8 OTU (Recce training unit). Ultimately struck off charge on 22 June, 1945.

FLYBOYJ · Oct 24, 2013

redcoat said:
The Luftwaffe had the practice of sending prototypes / early production aircraft to so-called test units (erprobungskommando) to work out faults and devise combat tactics for these aircraft.

Erprobungskommando - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This was brought up in an earlier discussion. Technically the first operational unit of the Me-262 was a test unit. 616 squadron operating the Meteor got into service before any LW JG unit was operating the 262. Semantics because the LW test units were seeing lots combat but the Meteor saw "operational" squadron combat first.

pattern14 · Oct 27, 2013

FLYBOYJ said:
This was brought up in an earlier discussion. Technically the first operational unit of the Me-262 was a test unit. 616 squadron operating the Meteor got into service before any LW JG unit was operating the 262. Semantics because the LW test units were seeing lots combat but the Meteor saw "operational" squadron combat first.

Just to clear this point; does that mean that the Meteor was the first operational Jet fighter, and not the 262? That's a lot of history books that will need retyping!!!

FLYBOYJ · Oct 29, 2013

pattern14 said:
Just to clear this point; does that mean that the Meteor was the first operational Jet fighter, and not the 262? That's a lot of history books that will need retyping!!!

"First operational jet fighter in an operational combat squadron." Ed Jablonski brought this up about 40 years ago.

pattern14 · Oct 29, 2013

Good to have that point cleared up. I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the Ar234. It was well documented that the Arado Ar 234 "A" prototype was made operational straight away, and achieved great success as a recon plane for the Luftwaffe. It was also able to over fly the UK without detection, even though the allies had total air superiority at the time. The 'B" bomber version came later, and was a slightly different aircraft. I personally regard it as the most successful prototype to be made operational, if you take into account what it achieved. There is a substantial amount of misinformation about this plane, but it achieved quite a number of "firsts'", and was totally over shadowed by the Me 262.

muscogeemike · Oct 29, 2013

GregP said:
The four P-80's flew patrol missions but never saw a German jet. I cannot recall if they saw or engaged German pistons. There are some nice pics of two of them over Mount Vesuvius.

The first all-jet combat was in the Korean War and result in a victory for US pilot Lt. Russell Brown. He got a MiG-15. The WWII British jets didn't get much closer to German jets than the US jets did, though not from any lack of desire to do so on the part of the British combat pilots. They were rather keen to have a go at it, but were not allowed to do so.

I'm not sure how much technology would have fallen into German hands if, say, a Meteor or a Vampire were to be shot down and examined by the Germans. They already had an operational jet or two and probably would not have learned anything they didn't already know except maybe to try a centrifugal compressor. Likewise the P-80's ... they were running British engines made over here and wouild have given away almost nothing to the Germans had they been shot down and examined. But the powers that be dictated it not happen in WWII, and it didn't.

By the time the P-80's arrived in Europe, we had already reverse-engineered the German V-1, complete with a US-designed pulsejet that was smaller than the German unit but made good thrust, and we were making the Loon here in the USA, so MAYBE the guys who didn't want anything new to fall into German hands knew what they were talking about.

They probably figured that if THEY could do it quickly, so could the Germans, and they certainly didn't want to hand the Germans anything useful. The Germans already had some potent high-tech weapons of their own. Accidentally handing them something new probably wasn't seen as a good idea by either the British or the Americans.

In reality, I doubt if the Allies had a clear picture of what things were like in Germany in late 1944 / early 1945, or we wouldn't have worried much about new developments based on captured Allied weapons. If the Germans had wasted any time and effort on it, the war would have ended even sooner than it did.

Technically wouldn't the first "Jet on Jet" combat have been between RAF Meteors and German V-1's?

pattern14 · Oct 30, 2013

From memory, didn't the North Koreans ( and the rest of the Commie horde) dispute that first claim? No Migs were lost that day according to the other side. And for Jet on jet, I seem to recall that AR234's actually inflicted the first jet on Jet damage when they bombed a field in Belgium, damaging a parked Meteor ( now we are really splitting hairs!!!) 616 Squadron downed 16 V-1s', although their piston engine contemporaries downed hundreds more. The Me 262 was the first operational jet to down a manned opponent, although I' suspect I'll be waiting until doomsday for the actual correct figures to ever come to light ( between 720 and 150 "kills" depending on what you read). Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the first Jet bomber shot down by a Jet fighter was a B45 Tornado downed by a Mig 15 as well. I remember reading years back that the B45 ended operating at night to cut losses, and their engines continued to be troublesome A bit off topic, I've always found it darkly amusing that the B47 Stratofortress never actually dropped a single bomb or downed a single opponent, although some were lost to Migs. I guess their role was a nuclear deterrent more so than an offensive bomber, but that subject is outside the scope of this forum.

Waynos · Nov 2, 2013

There are so many ways you can cut it when you think about it. The way I understand these things is that the first jet v jet kill goes to the Meteor v V1, while the first jet v jet combat was in Korea, as that was the first jet powered opponent that could fight back. Never heard of the Ar234 bombing a Meteor on the ground before, I'd love to know more about that.

When you say that 616Sqn downed 16 V1's though piston engined counterparts downed hundreds more, it almost looks like a criticism, of course there were also hundreds more piston engined counterparts in service, if not thousands actually

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