Prototypes used in combat.

The early short engine nacelle Meteors didnt have the speed to overtake a V1 plus there were problems with the guns jamming and the plane snaking. By the time that the Meteor was ready to get stuck into the V1s properly the Allied land forces had overun the launch sites.

pattle said:

Meteors were used towards the end of the war over Germany but by this time the Germans had very few aircraft and the Meteors were used to attack ground targets such as airfields, I think I have heard of these Meteors having shot down one or two communication type planes such as Siebels but I'm not sure about it, anyway they were not prototypes just very early production models and not as refined as the ones later produced.

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The Meteors used in Europe by 616 Sqn were late production Mk IIIs with Rolls-Royce Derwent Is, which had superseded the early Mk Is and IIIs with Wellands. The first airfield was Melsbroek (B.58 ) On March 19 1945 a Meteor was slightly damaged by a frag bomb dropped by an Ar 234 of 6./KG 76: On May 3 an Fi 156 was strafed and destroyed just after evading and landing: (All from Shores Thomas 2 TAF Vol 3pages 540-542)

Waynos said:

There are so many ways you can cut it when you think about it. The way I understand these things is that the first jet v jet kill goes to the Meteor v V1, while the first jet v jet combat was in Korea, as that was the first jet powered opponent that could fight back. Never heard of the Ar234 bombing a Meteor on the ground before, I'd love to know more about that.

When you say that 616Sqn downed 16 V1's though piston engined counterparts downed hundreds more, it almost looks like a criticism, of course there were also hundreds more piston engined counterparts in service, if not thousands actually

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Thanks to Aozora for following up on the Ar234 damaging the Meteor info For the first operational squadron of a first generation jet to achieve any thing was significant, so I was not intending to criticize 616 squadron: just a simple statement of fact that Tempests' and Spitfires destroyed far more V1's. The Meteor was aerodynamically dated from the outset, roughly on a par with the Heinkel He 280, but still managed to do very well for itself in a number of roles. The RAAF effort in Korea comes to mind straight away. Back to WW2 though; as much as I have avoided "what ifs' ?" in these forums, it would be intriguing to think how well the Meteor would have fared if the roles had been reversed. Thousand bomber raids with 7-800 fighter escorts, and a handfull of Mk1 Meteors to defend the UK. Might make for a lively thread topic

pattern14 said:

From memory, didn't the North Koreans ( and the rest of the Commie horde) dispute that first claim? No Migs were lost that day according to the other side.

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That is true, here's a piece from another forum...

"Nov, 1 1950: In his first day and his debut in Korea a zveno of MiG-15 of the 72th IAP, under the command of Maj Bordun, engage 10 F-80s in the Antung area. After the Russian version, the F-80s seemed to be completely unaware of the presence of the Soviet jet fighters.
Two F-80s were claimed and one is documented as crashed 15 miles south-east of Antung, pilot Capt Frank Doyle of the 7th FBS, victim of Lt Khominich. After this initial shock the USAF F-80s disengaged, and Bordun ordered his wingmen not pursue them because they were already short of fuel. To this day I dont have finded a commentary or version by the USAF about this combat.Also the Bu number of this F-80 is a mistery, is not included in the report of the day, only the 49-593, and this first F-80C was loss by AAA and early. Version no admitted by the USAF.

Nov, 8 1950: (From 40 year the "official versión" and the only one. Cold War times and nothing o very few to ear or read about the boys of the other side of the street). In the vertical of Sinuiju and in high cover for F-80s Fighter bombers attacking the airfield, Lt Russell Brown(16 FIS, 51 FIW)dive in his F-80C in pursuit of one MiG of the 72th GIAP(St Lt Kharitonov).
Despite of have only one .50 in working order, Brown hit the MiG of Kharitonov, this last drop his external fuel tanks and dive to evade. After the Russian version, Brown interpreted the dive as an uncontrolled fall and the explosion of the fuel tanks on the ground, the vapour of fuel of the tanks as products of his hits and the impact of explosion of the tanks as the crash and explosión of the MiG onto the ground. The explosion was also sighted by Lt Col Stephens , the flight leader of Brown and CO of the 16th FIS.(By November 1950 the number of drop tanks availables for MiGs were very limited and the consign was only to be dropped in extreme situations). Kharitonov succeded his evasion, recovered from this dive at an extreme low altitude and returned and landed safely in Anshan(Antung was not operative about this time).
Brown was credited with his kill and for the 40 years that was so the first Jet vs Jet combat (still today we can find this version everywhere and if you search in internet the word "F-80" you certainly find a short description of this combat in the historic background included in the description of the plane). Version no admitted by the VVS.

Nov 9, 1950 : This version is full admited by both sides. In escort for a combined strike againts the Yalu bridges by US Navy Corsairs, Skyraiders and some USAF planes, the F9F-2B Panthers of the VF-111(CV-47 Philippine Sea)engaged the MiGs of the 139th GIAP. Lt Cdr Amen , CO of the VF-111 put his Panther in a dive in the 6 o'clock behind the MiG of Capt Grachev(or Grachyov depending the publication) and accelerating to his mach limit number succeded in scoring some good hits with his 20mm in the MiG. Amen pulled with great difficulty up of his dive and his wingman saw how the MiG-15 (with the unfortunate Grachev dead or unconscient in the cockpit)crashed into the ground.Version full admittted by both sides."

pattern14 said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the first Jet bomber shot down by a Jet fighter was a B45 Tornado downed by a Mig 15 as well. I remember reading years back that the B45 ended operating at night to cut losses, and their engines continued to be troublesome A bit off topic, I've always found it darkly amusing that the B47 Stratofortress never actually dropped a single bomb or downed a single opponent, although some were lost to Migs. I guess their role was a nuclear deterrent more so than an offensive bomber, but that subject is outside the scope of this forum.

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I don't believe B-45s were lost to MiGs prior to 1950, and recon B-47s didn't fare much better but I believe at least one B-47 did damage MiGs during a ferret mission in the 1950s.

Despite not ever seeing combat, the B-47 was a great aircraft and I believe "would have" given the Soviets a lot of trouble if they were unleashed in mass.

FLYBOYJ said:

That is true, here's a piece from another forum...

"Nov, 1 1950: In his first day and his debut in Korea a zveno of MiG-15 of the 72th IAP, under the command of Maj Bordun, engage 10 F-80s in the Antung area. After the Russian version, the F-80s seemed to be completely unaware of the presence of the Soviet jet fighters.
Two F-80s were claimed and one is documented as crashed 15 miles south-east of Antung, pilot Capt Frank Doyle of the 7th FBS, victim of Lt Khominich. After this initial shock the USAF F-80s disengaged, and Bordun ordered his wingmen not pursue them because they were already short of fuel. To this day I dont have finded a commentary or version by the USAF about this combat.Also the Bu number of this F-80 is a mistery, is not included in the report of the day, only the 49-593, and this first F-80C was loss by AAA and early. Version no admitted by the USAF.

Nov, 8 1950: (From 40 year the "official versión" and the only one. Cold War times and nothing o very few to ear or read about the boys of the other side of the street). In the vertical of Sinuiju and in high cover for F-80s Fighter bombers attacking the airfield, Lt Russell Brown(16 FIS, 51 FIW)dive in his F-80C in pursuit of one MiG of the 72th GIAP(St Lt Kharitonov).
Despite of have only one .50 in working order, Brown hit the MiG of Kharitonov, this last drop his external fuel tanks and dive to evade. After the Russian version, Brown interpreted the dive as an uncontrolled fall and the explosion of the fuel tanks on the ground, the vapour of fuel of the tanks as products of his hits and the impact of explosion of the tanks as the crash and explosión of the MiG onto the ground. The explosion was also sighted by Lt Col Stephens , the flight leader of Brown and CO of the 16th FIS.(By November 1950 the number of drop tanks availables for MiGs were very limited and the consign was only to be dropped in extreme situations). Kharitonov succeded his evasion, recovered from this dive at an extreme low altitude and returned and landed safely in Anshan(Antung was not operative about this time).
Brown was credited with his kill and for the 40 years that was so the first Jet vs Jet combat (still today we can find this version everywhere and if you search in internet the word "F-80" you certainly find a short description of this combat in the historic background included in the description of the plane). Version no admitted by the VVS.

Nov 9, 1950 : This version is full admited by both sides. In escort for a combined strike againts the Yalu bridges by US Navy Corsairs, Skyraiders and some USAF planes, the F9F-2B Panthers of the VF-111(CV-47 Philippine Sea)engaged the MiGs of the 139th GIAP. Lt Cdr Amen , CO of the VF-111 put his Panther in a dive in the 6 o'clock behind the MiG of Capt Grachev(or Grachyov depending the publication) and accelerating to his mach limit number succeded in scoring some good hits with his 20mm in the MiG. Amen pulled with great difficulty up of his dive and his wingman saw how the MiG-15 (with the unfortunate Grachev dead or unconscient in the cockpit)crashed into the ground.Version full admittted by both sides."



I don't believe B-45s were lost to MiGs prior to 1950, and recon B-47s didn't fare much better but I believe at least one B-47 did damage MiGs during a ferret mission in the 1950s.

Despite not ever seeing combat, the B-47 was a great aircraft and I believe "would have" given the Soviets a lot of trouble if they were unleashed in mass.

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Thanks for that great bit of info regarding the first Jet on jet combat kill. There has been so much incorrect or inconclusive data on these sorts of events over the years. I don't suppose you would have any knowledge of the Heinkel he 162 claim on a Tempest would you? The best I could find was that it was shot down by flak, although the British pilot claimed to have been downed by an aircraft matching the description of the He 162. My bet is that it happened at the same time, and in the midst of being shot up, The Tempest pilot caught sight of the EA.....but I'm only guessing here.

Dang! I learn stuff every time I log on!