R4M FF Rocket. The ideal weapon for killing heavy bombers?

Shortround6 · Sep 21, 2012

Getting back to the original question rockets have several things going for them and several things against them.

On an individual basis they are cheap, and they are light.

However, they are also less accurate than a gun. they use much more propellant for weight of warhead delivered. The rocket tube, while made of low grade steel, is much heavier than a cartridge case of of nearly equivalent ballistics. At what point the weight and cost of the rocket tubes exceeds the weight and cost of an equivalent gun and cartridge cases I don't know but it happens at some point. 500 rounds or 2500 rounds?

Germans stopped most development of recoilless guns because of propellant shortages. A recoilless gun needed about 4 times the propellant of a normal gun. Rockets face a similar problem. When used in mass they consume an awful lot of propellent and raw materials for the weight of warheads delivered. Fin stabilized rockets are also rather susceptible to cross winds. They will tend to weather ****, that is they will turn into the direction the wind is coming from.

The French, British, Russians all used ( or tried to) folding fin rockets as air to air armament in the 1950s in addition to the Unites States. Both French and British tried using build in pods/trays like the US and Canada. All lasted just a few years. Even primitive guided missiles seemed preferable although I think both the rocket systems and early missiles were over sold.

Shortround6 · Sep 21, 2012

davebender said:
Hitting a single F6F is a lot more difficult then aiming at a B-17 box cruising @ 180 mph. You still need a cannon for self defense against enemy fighter aircraft serving as bomber escorts.

F-89s had a rather sophisticated radar set up for the time and a "computer" that was supposed to figure out a collision course intercept solution AND fire the rockets at the proper time. Taking the pilots reaction time out of the equation.

There is also an awful lot of empty space in a B-17 bomber box.

Try looking up "the Battle of Palmdale"

pinsog · Sep 21, 2012

davebender said:
I agree but that's not going to happen without more aviation fuel. So they need a weapon that will kill bombers even when employed by green pilots.

There is no wonder weapon that a green pilot could be given that would magicly swat B17 and B24's from the sky. Not gonna happen. Once escort fighters appeared in numbers, Germany was done, period. And she was ground into the dirt by B17's and B24's flying, during the day with escort fighters and by the RAF at night. We didn't even bring in the ultimate bad boy bomber of the time, the B29. We took on arguably the best defensive air force in the world at the time, with some of the best pilots int the world, and completely destroyed it. If we did that to the best, most experienced pilots in the world, no wonder weapon is going to help the 19 year old children with 20 hours of flight time reverse that. Nothing short of a nuclear tipped air to air missile.

tyrodtom · Sep 21, 2012

davebender said:
Hitting a single F6F is a lot more difficult then aiming at a B-17 box cruising @ 180 mph. You still need a cannon for self defense against enemy fighter aircraft serving as bomber escorts.

For once I agree with you. But we're talking about 2 F-89Ds, with 104 rockets each, 208 rockets fired, and not one hit.

pinsog · Sep 21, 2012

tyrodtom said:
For once I agree with you. But we're talking about 2 F-89Ds, with 104 rockets each, 208 rockets fired, and not one hit.

Good point. The target wasnt trying to avoid them, and it wasn't shooting back either. There also wasn't a giant swarm of P47's and P51's trying to shoot down the F89's as they lined up the F6F.

And anyone who thinks you can kill ducks by shooting blindly into a flock of ducks hasnt donee much duck hunting

DonL · Sep 21, 2012

There is no wonder weapon that a green pilot could be given that would magicly swat B17 and B24's from the sky. Not gonna happen. Once escort fighters appeared in numbers, Germany was done, period. And she was ground into the dirt by B17's and B24's flying, during the day with escort fighters and by the RAF at night. We didn't even bring in the ultimate bad boy bomber of the time, the B29. We took on arguably the best defensive air force in the world at the time, with some of the best pilots int the world, and completely destroyed it. If we did that to the best, most experienced pilots in the world, no wonder weapon is going to help the 19 year old children with 20 hours of flight time reverse that. Nothing short of a nuclear tipped air to air missile.

This isn't completely the truth, some of this issue also came up in the thread Germany's ideal late war fighter!
The backbone of the LW and especially the defending of the Reich was broken by a mix of reasons, but it was broken mid of 1943 till beginning 1944.

Pilot training, too less fuel, much too less high quality fuel and to my opinion the most important reason near one and a half year (beginning 1943 till introduction of the FW 190 D-9) no state of the art equipment (fighter a/c). The Bf 109G (6) could only comnpare to the P 38 without Gondulas and the FW 190A was only comparable till 6000m.

To me the lack of an equal fighter a/c at 1943 and most of the year 1944 is a decisive point, not only the arrival of the USAAF escort a/c's.

About all german equipment developed later then 1943 is the headline too late.

Anyway I stay to my point that a Me 262 equiped with R4M air to air rockets and the Mauser MG 213 would be a hell of a bomber killer even for a B29.
With every very new technical introduction (here three different very new technical introductions, Jet, revolver cannon and air to air rockets) you will have problems, but if all three are functioning it is very superior at 1945 from a technical viewpoint.

davebender · Sep 21, 2012

P-47D-25 with range to escort bombers to Berlin began deliveries to combat groups during May 1944. P-51D arrived in Europe around the same time.

By May 1944 Germany was done because the Red Army was rolling west in huge numbers, steam rolling most of the Wehrmacht along the way. American heavy bombers and fighter escorts had little to do with it.

None the less, Allied heavy bombers were inflicting much misery on the European population so the Luftwaffe had to stop them. Hence the need for R4M rockets and other such bomber killing weapons.

tyrodtom · Sep 21, 2012

davebender said:
P-47D-25 with range to escort bombers to Berlin began deliveries to combat groups during May 1944. P-51D arrived in Europe around the same time.

By May 1944 Germany was done because the Red Army was rolling west in huge numbers, steam rolling most of the Wehrmacht along the way. American heavy bombers and fighter escorts had little to do with it.

None the less, Allied heavy bombers were inflicting much misery on the European population so the Luftwaffe had to stop them. Hence the need for R4M rockets and other such bomber killing weapons.

You seem to have conveniently forgot that those fighters defending Germany were not stopping Russians, and the destruction that the Allied bombing did to oil production, factory output, and transportation hurt the Wehrmacht on all fronts.

stona · Sep 22, 2012

I think someone already posted the ranges at which most Luftwaffe pilots opened fire. This is not entirely just due to a lack of willingness to close the range,though the defensive fire of a bomber box must have been a deterrent factor. The RAF discovered in 1940 that its pilots were badly underestimating the range at which they were opening fire. Pilots were up to three times further away than they thought they were.Some of the earliest gun camera footage showed pilots opening fire at 1500 yards! They also proved incapable of accurately estimating deflection,typically underestimating by half.
What the Luftwaffe needed was a weapon effective against bomber formations when fired or released at a range approaching 1000m and none of the above meet that criteria.
Steve

Shortround6 · Sep 22, 2012

The problem with an aircraft mounted weapon "aimed" at a bomber formation is that there is an awful lot of empty space inside a bomber formation.

Flak batteries targeted formations but then Flak batteries are firing tons of ammunition per engagement. It took hundreds of flak shells at best ( and several thousand on average) to bring down one bomber. I doubt an airborne weapon employing "area fire" is going to do much better.

drgondog · Sep 22, 2012

DonL said:
This isn't completely the truth, some of this issue also came up in the thread Germany's ideal late war fighter!
The backbone of the LW and especially the defending of the Reich was broken by a mix of reasons, but it was broken mid of 1943 till beginning 1944.

Disagree. The 'West' defense was dominantly JG2 and JG26 in mid 1943 with some backup from BthMitte with elements of JG3 and JG1. The East and South started the transfer of many units in summer 1943, peaking in February, 1944. The 8th, not including RAF, were credited with 173 German day fighters destroyed through September 1943. In October -December, 1943 the 8th was credited with 271. In Jan-March, 1944 the8th and 9th AF were credited with 1038 and from April through June, 1944 credited with 1477. In June the RAF contributed heavily against the LW to add to 8th and 9th - but the majority of the LW fighter pilots in first six months of 1944 were LF Mitte/Reich in defense of Germany. LF Reich lost more fighter aircraft and pilots during Big Week (2/20-2/25/1944) than the LW lost to the entire USAAF daylight campaign from August 17, 1942 through August, 1943

Pilot training, too less fuel, much too less high quality fuel and to my opinion the most important reason near one and a half year (beginning 1943 till introduction of the FW 190 D-9) no state of the art equipment (fighter a/c). The Bf 109G (6) could only comnpare to the P 38 without Gondulas and the FW 190A was only comparable till 6000m.

Agree - with a qualifier. Both the Me 109G and FW 190A (with exception of Gondola equipped 109 and Sturm 190) were equivalent in general performance with the Mustang, P-47, P38 and Spit IX - each having advantages and disadvantages against each other. The critical issue was that LW could not exist at 'parity' when the US had an endless supply of well trained pilots - gasoline was part of the issue but complacency by German High Command regarding needs to pull experienced pilots out of the front for training - and Devoting higher allocations of fuel to training - was what killed the LW in winter 1943 through D-Day.

To me the lack of an equal fighter a/c at 1943 and most of the year 1944 is a decisive point, not only the arrival of the USAAF escort a/c's.

About all german equipment developed later then 1943 is the headline too late.

Anyway I stay to my point that a Me 262 equiped with R4M air to air rockets and the Mauser MG 213 would be a hell of a bomber killer even for a B29.

Totally agree for a simple reason - the B-29 was much faster and a 6 O'clock firing solution from a 262 had much more 'relative' time. I actually think the 262 would have been more effective against B-29s - maybe better than the faster MiG in Kore?
With every very new technical introduction (here three different very new technical introductions, Jet, revolver cannon and air to air rockets) you will have problems, but if all three are functioning it is very superior at 1945 from a technical viewpoint.

Agree.

drgondog · Sep 22, 2012

davebender said:
P-47D-25 with range to escort bombers to Berlin began deliveries to combat groups during May 1944. P-51D arrived in Europe around the same time.

The P-51B was the difference maker scoring 85% of the long range victory credits from Big Week to D-Day. P-47s stayed from Brunswick back to Holland/France. Even the P-38 until the -25J was limited to Berlin (max) and could never go to do target escort for the Schweinfurt, Brux, Stettin missions. It was only in July that the 38 even made Leipzig/Merseburg.

By May 1944 Germany was done because the Red Army was rolling west in huge numbers, steam rolling most of the Wehrmacht along the way. American heavy bombers and fighter escorts had little to do with it.

That may be a little silly - the 8th/9th and RAF were grinding experienced fighter pilots at a much higher rate in West than in East and another 500-1000 eperienced fighter pilots available for dive bomber and medium bomber escort would have severe consequences as far as casualties on the east - not to mention the impact to Oil/Chemical and armament industry.

None the less, Allied heavy bombers were inflicting much misery on the European population so the Luftwaffe had to stop them. Hence the need for R4M rockets and other such bomber killing weapons.

The D-25 had better range but still short of Berlin. It wasn't till October/November 1944 that the 56th, 78th, 353rd and 356th went as far as Leipzig/Magdeburg/Steinhuder Lake and the 353rd and 356th were converting to Mustangs.

DonL · Sep 22, 2012

@ drgondog

I think we mostly agree.

I can see your aruments to 1944.

gasoline was part of the issue but complacency by German High Command regarding needs to pull experienced pilots out of the front for training - and Devoting higher allocations of fuel to training - was what killed the LW in winter 1943 through D-Day.

Very good summary, to my opinion this issues were starting early mid 1943 with the given results.

Agree - with a qualifier. Both the Me 109G and FW 190A (with exception of Gondola equipped 109 and Sturm 190) were equivalent in general performance with the Mustang, P-47, P38 and Spit IX - each having advantages and disadvantages against each other.

Ok, but I think the disadvantage was higher, well "much" higher as BoB. It is very difficult for a rookie to be successfull and stay alive without state of the art equipment. And the Bf 109 G was a bitch to fly (at high speed and 100%), especially at high speed.

Speed and altitude were the main parameters which were absent for the german fighters (thats one of the main reasons why I'm this hardcore fan of the Fw 187). For the experts which can fly their a/c to 100% it is easier but as we saw some stayed alive but many of them died through the advantage of the allied a/c's. The FW 190A was much better for the rookies (because much easier to fly at high speeds), but lagged massive performance at altitude.

stona · Sep 23, 2012

I'm with you too,though you could pedantically argue that the stripping of training schools of qualified staff started even earlier,certainly at the time of "Torch" in late 1942.

I think that the Luftwaffe was doomed to lose the air war in Europe in 1943/4 by the losses (men and materiel) suffered between July 1940 and December 1941 and the lack of any coherent policies to deal with them. The game was up far earlier than is often appreciated. There were no miracle weapons for the Luftwaffe that could possibly have saved the day in 1944/5.

We're getting a long way from rockets though

Cheers

Steve

Erich · Sep 23, 2012

may I ask all of you to go back to the origins of the thread - rockets and not talk about the Mauser Mk 213 for thw what if's how about several of you get into research of the Br 21 and talk of the beginnings to the end of the war on air to air rocket/missile development, also the link I provided a couple pages back may help you guys out. think all of you during research instead of reading way old books with way old news scour the internet as there are some beneficial links that will give everyone insight ..............

tyrodtom · Sep 23, 2012

The origional question was if the R4M was the best weapon the Luftwaffe had for bringing down bombers. Doesn't that naturally lead to someone putting forth their opinion of what might be better?

davebender · Sep 23, 2012

Lots of things would be better then folding fin rockets.

What else can Germany reasonably expect to have in mass production by the end of 1943?

tyrodtom · Sep 23, 2012

At the end of 1943 the Luftwaffe probably though that they weren't doing too bad against the daylight bomber offensive, ans what they already had in their plans for future weapons would cover whatever the allies would come up with.
They didn't have a crystal ball that would tell them the bombs dropped over Germany in daylight in 44 would be over 8 times more than 43, and those bombers would be escorted by fighters that could take on the best they had.

davebender · Sep 23, 2012

didn't have a crystal ball that would tell them the bombs dropped over Germany in daylight in 44 would be over 8 times more than 43

You don't need a crystal ball to count B-17 and B-24 bomber production. And it's safe to assume most of those B-17s and B-24s will be in Europe a few months after rolling off the assembly line.

tyrodtom · Sep 23, 2012

davebender said:
You don't need a crystal ball to count B-17 and B-24 bomber production. And it's safe to assume most of those B-17s and B-24s will be in Europe a few months after rolling off the assembly line.

Production numbers weren't exactly public knowledge, and even when the figures were shown to the upper echelons in the 3rd Reich, the ones that mattered didn't believe them.

R4M FF Rocket. The ideal weapon for killing heavy bombers?

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