Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
Firstly: Orthogonal means at a right angle to the surface, correct?
Secondly: X-band seems to produce a greatly larger reflection: Do most modern air-to-air and surface-to-air radars use X-band, or other, provided it's not classified?
So the optical region for a 12" diameter sphere would be 75.4"?
What does "running rabbits" in the radar returns mean?
Wait, I'm confused. I thought the Mie range was where the wavelength was 1.5 x surface-area. This looks to be span/length x 1.5.
Fascinating
The B-26 designation confuses me because it was assigned to two different aircraft. Is this the B-26 Marauder or the B-26 Invader?
From at least the late-1960s thru the early 2020s pretty much all of the major US fighter aircraft radars were X-band.
<snip>
F-22 APG-77 (X-band or X-band adjacent - ie H/I/J-bands)
F-35 APG-81 (X-band or X-band adjacent - ie H/I/J-bands)
NOTE You will sometimes see other designations for the X-band - ie NATO H-band and I-band
So for head-on, the wingspan would be providing the figures? If I do this I get a RCS of 18.47 m^2 for a B-29 and 49.15 m^2 for the B-36. Those numbers seem a little small."The main echo regions that characterize RCS signature are the nose, broadside, and tail. A simple approximation for the nose-on aircraft RCS is = σ 0.01L2 where L is the aircraft length.
Some of these numbers are all over the place. At least in some cases it's clearly specified (such as the 707) that it's owing to different wavelenghts (C & X band appear to be the most likely used for radar as ATC uses C-band and military aircraft use X-band), but some numbers seem strange.This next table from the same source shows nose aspect ratio data for several targets.
View attachment 821822
UnderstoodYes, square to the face and on axis.
Except with stealth it seemsHigher frequency = larger RCS
Understood. Weren't X-band radars already being used in WWII?Many military air-to-air and surface-to-air radars are indeed in X-band, but there is a long series of events that has resulted in that.
So a sphere with a diameter of 12" would have an optical region of 18", and that would correspond to 535.4 MHz?The optical region is defined by the frequency of the signal in comparison to the size of the sphere, signal wavelength to maximum dimension. So it would be defined in frequency.
So running rabbits would mean the return would rapidly zip all over the place in range?Running rabbits are asynchronous interference being shown on the radar display. Interference synchronized in time will be fixed and not moving (in range, range is time to a radar) on the display, interference that is not in sync will move on the display.
I didn't know the book was published that far back. That said, in retrospect, the silhouette does look more like a B-26 than an A-26 owing to the wing (the A-26 has higher aspect ratio wing with less taper).In this case it is almost certainly referring to the B-26 Marauder.
What does ITU, IEEE and ESM (I know what NATO means) mean?For those not familiar, there are multiple designation systems for frequency ranges. Of the several different systems used to discuss ranges of frequencies, especially when radar is involved, there are three primary schemes. The ITU Band designations, the IEEE Radar Band designations, and the ESM / NATO Band designations.
The longer wavelengths may be able to detect stealth aircraft that are designed to evade microwave radars. But the longer wavelengths are also much less useful in supplying precise information on just where the aircraft is located, a problem obviously complicated by the fact that airplanes tend to move along a rather good clip.Except with stealth it seems
So for head-on, the wingspan would be providing the figures? If I do this I get a RCS of 18.47 m^2 for a B-29 and 49.15 m^2 for the B-36. Those numbers seem a little small.
I'm guessing all the military aircraft indicated are in X-band since the military would be the most likely to track such an aircraft.
Except with stealth it seems
Understood. Weren't X-band radars already being used in WWII?
So a sphere with a diameter of 12" would have an optical region of 18", and that would correspond to 535.4 MHz?
So running rabbits would mean the return would rapidly zip all over the place in range?
What does ITU, IEEE and ESM (I know what NATO means) mean?
Indeed. If you pointed a radar beam at an aircraft and tracked it through its path (like using a spotlight), you would notice it "twinkling" on the scope like a star as a wing dips slightly or it makes a slight change in course, etc. takes place. This is due to the variable reflection (RCS) as the aircraft's exact aspect to the radar unit changes.These numbers mean nothing without the specific frequency they were calculated or measured at. And for aircraft, also the aspect angle.
T!
So it's a fuzzier image without as much angular accuracy?The longer wavelengths may be able to detect stealth aircraft that are designed to evade microwave radars. But the longer wavelengths are also much less useful in supplying precise information on just where the aircraft is located, a problem obviously complicated by the fact that airplanes tend to move along a rather good clip.
So a longer wavelength radar may tell you that there is an aircraft over say, South Carolina, but that does not enable you to home in on it.
Well, there seemed to be corruption that surrounded the YB-35 program from 1946 on at minimum (and this might have predated the first flight) so it seems that the opposition to the aircraft predated the difficulty in detecting it on radar.During testing of the YB-49 they found it was very hard to see it on radar, even though no particular effort had been made to make it stealthy. My theory is that the B-49 production was killed and all examples destroyed in such a bizarre manner because the Soviets had penetrated Northrop (which we know to be the case), had copied the B-29, and had developed the atomic bomb. That adds up to a long range bomber able to carry a nuke and evade radar.
I kind of got the vibe the formula was an early formula that was more of a rule of thumb than a modern estimate. I still calculated the numbers out of curiosity, and things looked off (I didn't think about flat-plate area, admittedly).No, it is not that simple. You are calculating simple size and area, not RCS.
Good point.Physical size comes into play as a larger component when you get very low in frequency, as that size may determine what is the minimum frequency that has a reasonable chance of detecting the target. And even then, it ain't that simple. There are literal books written on what we are stating in single sentences and paragraphs here.
There is a certain degree of logic to that.Not at all. In fact I would bet that most of the military aircraft in such charts are not actually measured values, but guesstimates.
And you'd have to be able to reliably jam most of those frequency bands as well, I would guess?And X band is not all military aircraft have to worry about. It is true that many, maybe even most, threat radars (radars that can track and shoot deadly things at you) are in X band, but far from all threats are there. Also, the radars that hand off the target to the threat radar, things like acquisition, search, EW, radars, they might not be X band (many are) but you still want to hide from them also. So you need to know how easily you can be seen in every threat band, not just one of them.
That makes enough sense, and I guess as long as an F-22 could put an AIM-120 through an opponent, or a B-2 could drop a bomb on a target before anybody detected it it would have served its purpose.For military applications, if you can't see me until after I have killed you, then I might as well be invisible.
That's a good analogy. While I heard of bistatic radars, I didn't know much about what they were used for, though that seems like a solid reason.One thing not discussed so far is coatings.
To reduce RCS you can shape the object so reflected energy goes anyplace but back towards the radar. This will reduce the monostatic RCS (but leave you vulnerable to bistatic technologies). You can also coat it with materials that are not reflective in the frequency range (wavelengths) of interest. This will also reduce the RCS in both monostatic and bistatic applications.
Take the example of a flashlight in a flat black painted room. You shine the light around and the reflections, back to the person holding the flashlight, are weak, not a lot of light comes back to the source from the flat black painted walls.
Now put a mirror in the room pointed at a 45 degree angle to the the light source. The light will reflect off the mirror, but not back towards the source, and much of it will get lost in the black painted room. Still a weak reflection, from the aspect of the person holding the light. This is a monostatic scenario. But, if someone happens to be where the light is redirected to by the mirror, the light will be bright. This is bistatic.
Now point the mirror towards the light source. The same surface, but now reflecting all the light back to the source. Bright reflection.
Now paint the mirror flat black, what happens?
The angle mirror is shape, the flat black paint on the mirror is coating. In a very rough way.
For some reason I though the SCR-720 was an X-Band but it was S-Band (I just did a search).X band radars existed by the end of WW II, yes. However, they were still a minority. Most radars in use during WW II were S band and lower.
UnderstoodIf you abide by the 1.6 lambda definition, yes.
So that's where the 10 lambda figure came from?For the purposes of calculating the RCS as a calibration target it is not useful as some variability will be there until you get up into the 10 wavelength area.
Is this because the radar can't tell if the return it's getting is from it's own transmitter or the other?Yes, running rabbits are moving (in range) false targets / interference. Two radars tuned to about the same frequency and not synchronized (in pulse timing) would produce such false targets.
I kind of got the vibe the formula was an early formula that was more of a rule of thumb than a modern estimate. I still calculated the numbers out of curiosity, and things looked off (I didn't think about flat-plate area, admittedly).
Is this because the radar can't tell if the return it's getting is from it's own transmitter or the other?
I recall seeing on a TV weather report that as the radar swept another circle cut across the display. The TV WX guy explained that was due to another WX radar sweep.A radar never knows if a return is from its own transmitter.
A radar never knows if a return is from its own transmitter
re
I believe the usage of pulse coding in radars allows the individual radar to recognize its own emissions vs the emissions from other radars. The idea is that any particular radar, while using the same general frequency band as other radars in the area, will individually code its own pulses (sometimes each pulse will be the same for the specific radar, sometimes each pulse will be different from the one before and after for better ECCM).
Heavy noise jamming can degrade this ability, and very fast/very sophisticated types of deception jammers may fool slower and less sophisticated pulse coded radars. The noise jammers make it difficult for the radar to pick out the signal from the noise/clutter generated by the jammer, while the deception jammers (if they are fast enough/sophisticated enough) may actually be able to generate pulse coded signals that mimic the emitting radars pulse code and (under some conditions) cause the emitting radar to be unable to determine which signal is the original.
Yes? No?
PVFA63 mentioned the following in a quote "The main echo regions that characterize RCS signature are the nose, broadside, and tail. A simple approximation for the nose-on aircraft RCS is = σ 0.01L2 where L is the aircraft length.Not sure exactly which formula you are referring to as "early".
UnderstoodRCS values were, until recent decades, mostly actual measured numbers, not calculations. For example, the B-26 RCS plot shown earlier in this thread was an actual measured plot, not calculated. For simple shapes, plates, spheres, cylinders, etc, of homogeneous materials the formulas are relatively simple, and those have been around a long time.
I assume people did make estimates when a new aircraft was found to exist, however?It has only been in the later decades that computing power, formulas, and modeling fidelity were robust enough to start yielding good, reliable, numbers for complex shapes and varying materials.