RAF Bomber Command....

[tail end charlie]

Kurfurt

Charles the Great was the first emperor (It says in Wiki just below your quote) therefore germany is part of Greater France. Like I am in a Danish state and the people north of me belong to Norway.

I would have thought Holy ROMAN empire would have indicated something wasnt 100% German about it unless of course Rome is in Germany too.

 

[BombTaxi]

Eh bomb, you know quite a lot of Boeren died in those camps, you know that? The Nazi's just perfected them. Kurfurst has one point in which he's right. All countries have done their bad things, the Germans did that in WW2, the Dutch in the 17th century (slaves etc) and the English did their part. Nobody is innocent, even if we don't want to know about it.

I am not claiming that the British were innocent, and I am, of course, aware that Boers died in the camps. But the camps were not expressly set up to kill civilians, as the Nazi death camps were. The British Empire inflicted much pain and suffering on the world, and I do not, for even a second, condone those actions. But for Kurfurst to draw a direct comparison between the South African camps and Auschwitz is monstrous and unfair

 

[Kurfürst]

Again you act as an apologist to justify the German invasion of the Netherlands...

Right, so now Britain and France started the war? Funny, the history books that I've read stated that Germany invaded Poland and the Allies declared war after giving Germany an ultimatum to withdraw from Poland. You reveal yourself more and more...

Run out of civilized arguments so soon, and only the insults remain, eh?

 

[RCAFson]

Run out of civilized arguments so soon, and only the insults remain, eh?

No insults, just statements of fact. I notice that you make no attempt to deny that you believe that the Allies initiated the war.

 

[Marcel]

Oddly referred to between historians as the second Reich. I wonder why that is.

Frankley, I don't consider the 'Holy Roman Empire' as a German state (one would claime that Italie was German, too ), although Germany as it is now was part of it. This is of course debatable and unfortunately Hitler saw it otherwise.

Err, they were, I believe (see above), and no, this didn't give right for Germans in the 20th century to invade them.

I guess the Netherlands got in the way of things again, but frankly I have no idea why operations were extented to the NL.
BTW I wonder if you were the Germans in 1940, what would you have done?

I would not have started WW2 in the first place, but that's another story. About the invasion of Holland, that's truly a strange story. I believe that ultimately the Germans decided to go through The Netherlands when a small aircraft (ME108 ) got lost and landed in Belgium, carrying the German plan to attack France through Belgium. Hitler panicked and decided that the Plan had to change. The change they made wa htat they were now going to occupy the whole of the NL instead of only the south point (Limburg) to protect a push through the Ardennes.

Agreed. Now, how about all Germans? Because I see a distinction between ordinary Germans and Nazi party functionaries. And you?

No, I don't consider the Germans, then and now as evil. If you read back my posts, you can see that I always refer to 'Nazi's' if I'm talking about crimes committed by the Third reich. My grandfather was in the resistance and in 1942 his life was saved by a German officer when the Nazi's wanted to execute him. I ow my existence ultimately to that German officer since my mother was born only 2 years later.

 

[Kurfürst]

I am not claiming that the British were innocent, and I am, of course, aware that Boers died in the camps. But the camps were not expressly set up to kill civilians.

You make it sound like it was mere coincidence. Almost as if they were struck by a random lightning or something.

But for Kurfurst to draw a direct comparison between the South African camps and Auschwitz is monstrous and unfair

I am not. You are.

 

[bobbysocks]

those who fail to listen to reason are doomed not to escape the trappings of folly. to debate with you about a subject as thus is futile. you will believe whatever wish...but i believe you take great delight in playing devil's advocate and stirring up the pot to see what boils. as this "debate" actaully will go no where except the down to road to enrage everyone's emotion...i too vote for locked.

 

[Marcel]

i too vote for locked.

On the contrary, if everyone would behave civilised, this could be a highly interesting discussion. Both parties should lay their feelings aside and discuss this on a more academic level (leave the passion). I find the discussion with Kurfurst on European history as much enjoyable.

And please remember: all countries did their bad thing in history. WW2 is just one of the more recent incidents. And yes, both parties committed crimes during ww2 although I think the Nazi's won that game together with the commies.

War isn't black-and-white, 'not good against evil'. It is evil answered with evil. The one that is most effective wins this. Nazi barbarism like concentration camps were, although very evil, contra-productive, thus they lost. Th area bombing was also evil, but more productive (especially in Japan), thus the Allies won.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

those who fail to listen to reason are doomed not to escape the trappings of folly. to debate with you about a subject as thus is futile. you will believe whatever wish...but i believe you take great delight in playing devil's advocate and stirring up the pot to see what boils. as this "debate" actaully will go no where except the down to road to enrage everyone's emotion...i too vote for locked.

I agree, and so it shall be done.

There is no point in discussing this thread any further.

Some people need to tread lightly in this forum, they are being watched.

 

[tail end charlie]

You make it sound like it was mere coincidence. Almost as if they were struck by a random lightning or something.
I am not. You are.

Most died from insanitary conditions not malice as happens in a refugee camp today.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

On the contrary, if everyone would behave civilised, this could be a highly interesting discussion. Both parties should lay their feelings aside and discuss this on a more academic level (leave the passion). I find the discussion with Kurfurst on European history as much enjoyable.

The problem is that this discussion happens every few months and it never stays civil.

 

[tail end charlie]

I agree, and so it shall be done.

There is no point in discussing this thread any further.

Some people need to tread lightly in this forum, they are being watched.

damn I was just getting warmed up with my fish jokes

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

damn I was just getting warmed up with my fish jokes

Those I surely enjoyed...

 

[Kurfürst]

No insults, just statements of fact./QUOTE]

Oh well I guess you will excuse me if I care little about it.

I notice that you make no attempt to deny that you believe that the Allies initiated the war.

I make notice that I have not said that, I have said that the Allies inited war on the West. Which is I am afraid a historical fact, Britain and France declared war on Germany on 3rd September, and not vica versa. Following the occupation of Poland, the Allies refused peace talks unless the Germans would leave Poland. Not a word on the Russians though, and apparantly, their guarantee was only against German occupation, Russian occupation was OK with them.

 

[Matt308]

And that will be the all of that. Alrighty then!

Forum members: This sad end has occurred not because of the last post. In fact, it has not occurred due to the last many posts in this thread. Rather, the Mods have been entirely too patient with some members (now past) who have taken tones, directly insulted other members, or were arguing for the sake of "stirring the excrement". This latest action by the Mods was not an emotional response out of nowhere. This action has been contemplated for months... if not years.

What is done, is done.