RAF ID of loss in Belgium

[JFarr29]

Hello
I was looking through one of the WW2 German photo albums that I own and came across this photo. Apparently an English plane destroyed by Messancy (Metzig) in Belgium, July 1940.
Realistically it could be June 1940 and it's hard to tell what the plane is, I was thinking Defiant?

However, I can find no record of RAF losses in that area in the time period. There was one Defiant (well two but the other was repaired) and two hurricanes but not in this area.
Just wondered if anyone had any idea/sources?

Thanks

 

[Wurger]

Welcome to the site.

Regarding your question ... it is not the British plane but the French one . That's a Morane-Saulnier MS.406. So no wonder you couldn't find anything more.

 

[JFarr29]

Morane-Saulnier MS.406.

Thank you. Presumably the roundels had confused him!

 

[Wurger]

Thank you. Presumably the roundels had confused him!

Yes, sometimes the French roundel looks almost the same as the RAF one. But there are other differences in markings that can be noticed usually. Also I doubt the plane was shot down. IMHO she was destroyed while standing on the ground.

 

[SaparotRob]

Yes, sometimes the French roundel looks almost the same as the RAF one. But there are other differences in markings that can be noticed usually. Also I doubt the plane was shot down. IMHO she was destroyed while standing on the ground.

Would the difference be no border on the outer ring of the roundel? I couldn't tell what the colors were.

 

[Wurger]

Would the difference be no border on the outer ring of the roundel? I couldn't tell what the colors were.

No. The lack of the border on outer ring isn't the difference. I assume you mean the thin yellow outline used for the RAF roundel on the undersides. But it was used for the markings when the bottom of the port wing was of the black. In the pic the undersides aren't black though. What is more the kind of the appearance of the RAF roundel colour can be noticed in pictures taken with the yellow or red filter. But in the both cases the sky is always dark ( because both filters make the blue colour getting darker ) with the clouds well noticed. An image taken without any filter has the skies light without the clouds seen mostly like the one above. The red and blue in the RAF roundel and the fin flash look almost the same dark. Depending on the sunlight the red may be slightly lighter.
The another detail for the RAF and the French roundel that makes them different are the proportions of the rings and their location.

Here a couple of examples ... for instance the Hurricane ... can you see the difference?

no filter ...

with a filter ...

the pic source: Hawker Hurricane

 

[SaparotRob]

I can't tell the difference. In my defense, I'm currently looking at the pictures on my phone.

 

[Wurger]

I see. Indeed the smarthphone screen isn't the best displayer in the case. So we may use the proportion for instance.
The French roundel was of the D, 7/10D, 4/10D while the RAF roundel of the A type that was used at the time was of D, 3/5D, 1/5D. The RAF A1 type introduced a little bit later, was of D, 5/7D, 3/7D, 1/7D. The D is the diameter of the sign. If you assume the D=1m ( 100cm or 1000mm ) we get ...

for the French roundel ... 40cm in the diameter for the light blue disk, 70cm for the white one and 100cm for the red one. In other words ... the dimensions for the colour parts are 20cm/15cm/15cm, starting from the centre of the roundel.

for the RAF A type roundel ... 20cm in the diameter for the red disk, 60cm for the white one and 100cm for the blue one. In other words .. the dimensions for the colour parts are 10cm/20cm/20cm, starting from the center of the roundel.

for the RAF A1 type roundel ... ~14,3cm in the diameter for the red disk, ~42,9cm for the white one, ~71,3cm for the blue one and 100cm for the yellow one. In other words .. the dimensions for the colour parts are ~7,15cm/14,3cm/14,3cm/14,3cm, starting from the center of the roundel.

As you may notice the centre disk of the RAF A type roundel is just a half of the French one (20cm - 40cm). Contrary to that the RAF roundel has the white part and the blue one 5cm wider than the French one. For the RAF A1 type roundel the red disk is even smaller then the one for the A variant although the other rings are almost of the same width as the French ones. So that's the reason for the different appearance of the roundels. The centre disk for the French sign always looks like being large surrounded by the narrow white and red rings while the one for the RAF markings seems to be just a dot with the wide white and blue rings.

The shape of the Armée de l'Air roundel ...

The shape of the RAF roundel ...

 

[Wurger]

And getting back to the filters ....

No filter ... the light skies. A crashed Hurricane in France 1940. The fuselage A type roundel with added the narrow, inconsistent with rules/order, yellow ring. The blue ring seems to be slightly lighter than the central red disk but it looks like the blue area of the roundel was washed because of the applying of the yellow. Hence the difference. However , if you pay your attention to the RAF strips on the rudder you may notice the red at the rudder leading edge is lighter than the red one at the trailing one. What is more the both colours seen at the shadow are dark and look almost the same.

And here a shot taken with a filter .... the A1 type RAF roundel. The yellow ring of the correct width but of the lighter tone than the one in the pic above. The light red, central "dot" and what is more, the darker sky with the white clouds in there noticed.

the pic source: the net.

 

[SaparotRob]

I see. Indeed the smarthphone screen isn't the best displayer in the case. So we may use the proportion for instance.
The French roundel was of the D, 7/10D, 4/10D while the RAF roundel of the A type that was used at the time was of D, 3/5D, 1/5D. The RAF A1 type introduced a little bit later, was of D, 5/7D, 3/7D, 1/7D. The D is the diameter of the sign. If you assume the D=1m ( 100cm or 1000mm ) we get ...

for the French roundel ... 40cm in the diameter for the light blue disk, 70cm for the white one and 100cm for the red one. In other words ... the dimensions for the colour parts are 20cm/15cm/15cm, starting from the centre of the roundel.

for the RAF A type roundel ... 20cm in the diameter for the red disk, 60cm for the white one and 100cm for the blue one. In other words .. the dimensions for the colour parts are 10cm/20cm/20cm, starting from the center of the roundel.

for the RAF A1 type roundel ... ~14,3cm in the diameter for the red disk, ~42,9cm for the white one, ~71,3cm for the blue one and 100cm for the yellow one. In other words .. the dimensions for the colour parts are ~7,15cm/14,3cm/14,3cm/14,3cm, starting from the center of the roundel.

As you may notice the centre disk of the RAF A type roundel is just a half of the French one (20cm - 40cm). Contrary to that the RAF roundel has the white part and the blue one 5cm wider than the French one. For the RAF A1 type roundel the red disk is even smaller then the one for the A variant although the other rings are almost of the same width as the French ones. So that's the reason for the different appearance of the roundels. The centre disk for the French sign always looks like being large surrounded by the narrow white and red rings while the one for the RAF markings seems to be just a dot with the wide white and blue rings.

The shape of the Armée de l'Air roundel ...
View attachment 792578

The shape of the RAF roundel ...
View attachment 792579
View attachment 792580

You have given me the key. Now that I see it, I can't unsee it. Does this hold for all British and Commonwealth roundels? Thanks!

 

[Wurger]

You have given me the key. Now that I see it, I can't unsee it. Does this hold for all British and Commonwealth roundels? Thanks!

IIRC yes it does. The Commonwealth roundels were actually nothing more but these Brits markings. Certainly the diameter "D" of the roundel depended on a plane and the marking location but the general proportions were the same. Certainly we are talking about the A/A1 type roundel. The C and C1 roudels had the different proportions.

Here is a nice shot of the RAF Fairey Battles escorted by the French Curtiss Hawks somewhere over the France in 1940. The differences in the appearance of the RAF and the Armée de l'Air roundels can be noticed well.

 

[Wurger]

BTW ... on the 1st August 1940, the RAF A type roundel on the undersides of the fighter machines could be of the three maximal diameters ... 76,2cm ( 30 inches ) , 114,3cm ( 45 inches ) and 127cm ( 50 inches ). So the basic D dimension was strictly ordered by the AM but the proportions were still the same. However the red spot could vary. For instance, all Spitfires built from June had standardised 89cm ( 35 inches ) fuselage roundels, although many had non-standard 17cm ( 7 inches ) red centres applied at the Supermarine factory, instead of the specified 13cm ( 5 inches ). All Castle Bromwich built Spitfires had roundels with the correct 5 in (13cm) centre spot.

The RAF WW2 and post war roundel proportions and some more info you may find here ... https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Royal_Air_Force_roundelsu

 

[special ed]

So, in reality, the British gave their enemies a smaller bullseye than the French for a target.

 

[Wurger]

So, in reality, the British gave their enemies a smaller bullseye than the French for a target.

Actually bingo ... ! To make the matter worse for the enemies , the Brits made the white and the yellow areas in the markings smaller introducing the C and C1 roundels.