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The Windsor was pretty much a four-engined Wimpy
Wellington replacement or Warwick replacement?
I think the problem with 'escort' fighters, occurred when the commands were split up, no other aircraft were included in Bomber Command, apart from Bombers! With a more composite force it could have evolved. But the big problem was that the Air Ministry e.g. Portal didn't believe it could be possible - so didn't ask!
I think the problem with 'escort' fighters, occurred when the commands were split up, no other aircraft were included in Bomber Command, apart from Bombers! With a more composite force it could have evolved. But the big problem was that the Air Ministry e.g. Portal didn't believe it could be possible - so didn't ask!
There is also the question of timing. During the 30s and until 1940/41 Portal was right. An escort fighter that could take on short range interceptors was NOT possible. It became possible with with the better fuels and engines that showed up in 1942. Portal was guilty of not keeping up with the changes. But to claim he ( or other RAF brass) were guilty of ignoring what was not possible before then is not fair.
A properly planned move to an offensive role (plus those other requirements) would have pushed the RAF into improving range. In the Spit's case, make it a MR plane (combat radius of around 300 miles), then eventually a LR one. The work being done turning bog standard Spits into LR PR ones showed the technical possibility. That ended, except for PR ones, when Portal came into power.
A properly planned move to an offensive role (plus those other requirements) would have pushed the RAF into improving range. In the Spit's case, make it a MR plane (combat radius of around 300 miles), then eventually a LR one. The work being done turning bog standard Spits into LR PR ones showed the technical possibility. That ended, except for PR ones, when Portal came into power.
I keep repeating that a up to a couple of months before the P-51B went operational he was still writing to Arnold lecturing him on the 'impossibility' of a LR fighter and that the USAAF should give up day operations and join the RAF in night ones.
That was to repeatedly hit the German U-Boat bases in the Bay of Biscay, before they built all the reinforced pens in 41 and 42. Now the RAF could have done it and prevented the pens being built (which made them immune from bombing until the Tallboys came along). But it had to be done in the day (the RAF's night navigation was too bad) and that meant escorts.... which they didn't have because Portal said it was impossible.
Actually SR and Stona there were experiments for LR (well at least MR) Spits in 1940.
Could we say that those US generals were wrong the very second they made that decision, especially in the light of the BoB that ended only several months ago? Bf-109 was lacking mostly one thing - a drop tank facility - to extend it's legs over most of the England. Anyway, any fighter worth it's name get the drop tanks in 1941, US ones included....
Portal "came to power" in October 1940. His priority was more fighters for defence, not longer ranged fighters.
In March 1941 Spaatz and Hoyt Vandenburg turned down a proposal to equip the P-39 with drop tanks. Their reasons:
Additional range would ""provide opportunities for improper tactical use of pursuit types", and the changes "would tend to slow up production and reduce the combat effectiveness of the airplane."
The same reasons would be in Portal's mind. Indeed, they would have been more pressing for Portal. Whilst the USAAF was not yet in the war, the RAF was, and it was the only major air force standing against the Luftwaffe. Portal needed more Spitfires because it was the only fighter in the world at the time that could face the Luftwaffe on equal terms.
Fw-190 came along in 1941, and was recognized as a dire threat even back then.No it didn't. The Spitfire VII and VIII were fitted with extra fuel to increase range. Sadly the Luftwaffe delayed them.
In 1940 the RAF needed more Spitfires desperately and didn't care about range.
In 1941 with the advent of the 109F the RAF desperately needed to get the Spitfire V into service in large numbers, to replace not just earlier Spitfires but the Hurricane as well.
In 1942 the RAF was supposed to begin switching to the Spitfire VII and VIII, with more fuel for increased range. Then the Fw190 came along and once again the RAF was desperate to get faster Spitfires, not longer ranged ones.
The modification of the P-51 (from V-1710 to V-1650) happened in 1942, way before USAF admitted to themselves they need 'Berlin and back' escort fighter.Long range Spitfires were a luxury the RAF simply couldn't afford for most of the war. And the RAF never had the urgent requirement that the USAAF faced in 1943, and that led to the modification of the P-51.
Could we say that those US generals were wrong the very second they made that decision, especially in the light of the BoB that ended only several months ago?
Fw-190 came along in 1941, and was recognized as a dire threat even back then.
The modification of the P-51 (from V-1710 to V-1650) happened in 1942, way before USAF admitted to themselves they need 'Berlin and back' escort fighter.
As for long range Spitfire being a luxury - the RAF bought 1000 BP Defiants, went for a two-engined Whirlwind, tried the Welkin, purchased Sabre-engined fighters, was buying (prior LL set in) US planes. Compared with that, a Spitfire with more fuel seems like a bargain.
The Whirlwind wasn't a long range aircraft, as I posted somewhere else its official radius of action was exactly the same as a standard Hurricane. It was a means of getting four 20mm cannon airborne, something fighter command was keen to do. It was seen as a stop gap by Dowding until the new "Hawker fighter", meaning the Typhoon, came along. He didn't like it and he definitely didn't like Westland Aircraft Ltd.
Cheers
Steve
I don't know. The two points they raised were valid. Delaying production is obviously detrimental. Giving planes extra capability can be detrimental if they are then used for a different task.
I'd want to see a lot more information before saying that the commanders were wrong to want their planes as soon as possible, and that their fear that extra capabilities might mean the planes would be diverted elsewhere was unfounded.
Yes. I mean the effect on Spitfire production was felt in 1942. The RAF planned to bring new Spitfires into service in 1942 with the 2 stage Merlin 60 series engine. Both the Spitfire VII and VIII had extra internal fuel. Because of the Fw190 threat, they instead fitted the Merlin 60 series to the Spitfire V airframe to produce the Mk IX. It could be in service quicker and in greater numbers than the VII and VIII.
It wasn't Portal's intransigence that caused the end of medium range Spitfire development, it was the absolute need to get a counter to the Fw190 in operation in large numbers as quickly as possible.
The rear fuselage tank wasn't added until after the USAAF had sent an urgent request to Lockheed, Republic and NAA in August 1943 for extra fuel capacity in their fighters.
It's not the cost it's the production delays. Buying Whirlwinds or Typhoons doesn't involve a delay to Spitfire production. Modifying Spitfires does.
There were all sorts of modifications that Supermarine came up with that would improve the Spitfire. Some of them even got built. But there was remarkably little change in the basic design of the Spitfires that were produced in bulk at Castle Bromwich. Castle Bromwich went from the Mk II to Mk V to Mk IX to Mk XVI. They all shared the same basic airframe.
Buying Whirlwinds or Typhoons doesn't involve a delay to Spitfire production.
Experiments are one thing, practical is another.
The Merlin gained About 45% in take-off power between the III and 61. And about 33% from the III to the XII and 45. Getting of the ground in an early Spitfire (MK III engine and 87 octane fuel) with 250-300 gals would have been a looong slooow processes. While a MK V Spit with a Merlin 45 engine offers a much more realistic take-off possibility what will an extra 350lbs (extra weight of fuel and tanks in a MK VIII ?)or so of weight do to combat performance at the needed radius? Doesn't sound like much but you are dealing with about a 7000lb fighter so even 350lbs is 5%.
Merlin 45 burns about 2.5 gallons a minute at 16lbs boost, so 12.5 gallons (imp) for 5 minutes, 22 gallons for 3000rpm and 9lbs for 15 minutes. About 15-20 gallons for 30 minutes or a bit more reserve at 1800rpm and low boost. SO around 50 gallons needed after what ever drop tanks are used are dropped and not including startup, warm up, take-off and climb to safe altitude to switch to drop tanks. A 300mph true airspeed cruise at 20,000ft can burn around 46 gallons an hour or more. Going to 335-350mph can burn 65-70 gallons a hour.