Realistic max speeds WW2 fighters / Speeds of the late 109s

[vanir]

Not all G-14's came with MW-50. And like what was previously mentioned, some G-14 were rebulit G-6's. Whereas all G-10 were brand new airframes. Radios were FuG 16 ZY (id'ed with the so-called morane mast under the left wing) FuG 25's (for friendly a/c, flak batteries etc.). These were found in Late G-6Y's/G-14's/G-10's/K-4's/K-14's. No doubt as you said field conversions took place of radios/MW-50 such. Ost front aircraft tended to delete the FuG 16 ZY radios though.

So I can quote you in agreement that it is not really a case of "a G-6 is this and a G-14 is that" in particular where those two designations are involved, yes?

 

[Kryten]

Deep in the woods. Nothing but trees, bush, grass, and a water filled crater. no AA units to target this area ( not saying your wrong or anything )

View attachment 182033

if that particular aircraft made that crater then its shrapnel and mangled alloy, and the notion some historian could determine the cause is nonsense, sounds like the claim made by the P51's was genuine after all!

 

[pbfoot]

Deep in the woods. Nothing but trees, bush, grass, and a water filled crater. no AA units to target this area ( not saying your wrong or anything )

View attachment 182033

Looking at the hole I think his speed was about mach 1

 

[Ratsel]

Ever think thats a bog? Anyways, seems no answer will do. Perhaps one straight from the horses mouth will suffice. You can contact him here. http://www.flugzeuga​bstuerze-saarland.de. I promise you more then just 'mangled alloy' was found. You can also ask him what calibre ammo was found in Herr Bartels body after he was found 25+ years after the war ended. Plane relativley intact, also in a bog ( Yes I know Werner Girbig originally found the site).

 

[tyrodtom]

At the rate some trees grow, that could have been a barren plain 50-60 years ago.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Ever think thats a bog? Anyways, seems no answer will do. Perhaps one straight from the horses mouth will suffice. You can contact him here. http://www.flugzeuga​bstuerze-saarland.de. I promise you more then just 'mangled alloy' was found. You can also ask him what calibre ammo was found in Herr Bartels body after he was found 25+ years after the war ended. Plane relativley intact, also in a bog ( Yes I know Werner Girbig originally found the site).

If the aircraft was found "relativley intact," what was done with the wreckage? Even mangled wrecks are highly sought after either by museums or collectors. Going back to the discussion about determining on what brought down this aircraft, I can tell you first hand that unless certain aspects of the wreck were kept in tack, you're not going to find much if mud and corrosion set in (I have worked accident investigations and actually picked up wrecked aircraft). I would love to see a photo of what was found 25 years ago.

 

[Ratsel]

Well with Bartels for example, when Werner Girbig did the original excavation, the plane itself was left behind. Bartels body was taken and given a proper burial.

Werner Girbig at the site, 1965. Bartels plane relatively intacted (Perhaps a more proper term would be the major pieces are still there. The earth moving equiptment tore it up) otherwise it was scrapped, a shame.

On the Second excavation by Uwe Benkel, found/cataloged alot of pieces from the plane. Some are in his collection, others I think went to family members.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Great pics (and a great site you posted). Yes, when you come across wreckage like that, the exact cause of the crash will be hard to determine when you get mud and corrosion set in. If the propeller survived you can easily determine if it was turning or stopped. That excavation was done at a time where aircraft wrecks were still looked at as "junk" but even some of the most severe wrecks can be partially salvaged.

Westpac Restoration - Westpac Restoration

 

[jim]

Excellent and sad photos Mr Ratsel .The true picture of war.

 

[Jenisch]

=GregP;833134 tthe Me 109 was WELL KNOWN as a 180 - 300 mph fighter. The 441 mph speed was a straight line intercept or fleeing from death speed. The Me 109 could barely roll or turn at 400+ mph and the leg was VERY tired due to no rudder trim. They were slow to medium speed dogfighters, no bull, and were not much of a factor if going faster than 330 mph because they were fleeing or arriving before configuring to fight. If in their envelope, the Me 109 was formidable. If outside the envelope, it was either accelerating, running, or trying desperaley to slow down to fight. To be fair, most other fighters were also not good at fighting at 400+ mph. They were basically ALL 200- 350 mph fighters with the ability to sprint when required for sruvival or attack.

This is why I can catch Mustangs in the Fw 190A in IL2 at low and medium altitudes with relative easiness. Even if the top speed of the Anton is inferior, the "combat speed" is not, correct?

 

[parsifal]

Off topic, and a late starter. I apologise in advance folks.

Not much I can add to this discussion. However I have read that during the battle of the Phillipines Sea, in June 1944, the USN F6Fs were so worn that their true max speeds had reduced from a theoretical 376mph to just over 350mph. This was because they had not been stripped down and engines rebuilt for months.

Ozawas zeroes by comparison were actually brand new, mostly, but I dont have any information on their actual performance compared to theoretical performance.

Like cars, maintenance affects performance. Unlike peace time standards, in war big risks are taken with regard to safety and reliability......

 

[pbfoot]

I'll even state that most of these birds were not in rough shape but most probably would not pass a modern inspection. They were dented scratshed and chipped and probably not as polished as they might be . Most IMHO would not achieve the book maximun speed in a month of sundays

 

[Jenisch]

Please, someone can ansewer my doubt? I'm so curious!

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Gentlemen, I have to pipe in here...

I cant speak for other air forces but the level of maintenance during WW2 for American aircraft was set by the manufacturer. "Technical Orders" or TOs developed by input from the manufacturer and for the most part were followed to the letter of the law and there was very little room for deviation. Squadron COs did have the authority to deviate or wave certain maintenance actions in support of the mission, but there would be hell to pay if one of their decisions cost lives or equipment. The buck usually stopped with a squadron or group maintenance officer who in many cases would be the final authority and most of the time that individual interfaced very closely with any manufactuer field rep. As far as a "modern" inspection, that would depend who wrote the maintenance program and what aviation authority approved it. I can tell ( and I think many of the guys out there involved in the warbird community would agree with me ) that the basis for WW2 combat aircraft maintenance, then and now, starts with the original maintenance manuals or the manufacturer's maintenance program.

Bottom line gentlemen, if it met the requirement of the TO, it was considered airworthy.

 

[pbfoot]

Gentlemen, I have to pipe in here...

I cant speak for other air forces but the level of maintenance during WW2 was set by the manufacturer. "Technical Orders" or TOs developed by input from the manufacturer were followed to the letter of the law and there was very little room for deviation. Squadron COs did have the authority to deviate or wave certain maintenance actions in support of the mission, but there would be hell to pay if one of their decisions cost lives or equipment loss. As far as a "modern" inspection, that would depend who wrote the maintenance program and what aviation authority approved it. I can tell you (as well as many of the guys out there involved in the warbird community) that the bases for WW2 combat aircraft maintenance, then and now, starts with the original maintenance manuals.

Let me clarify as an example were the birds flown in Guadalcanal or Malta up to snuff at all times if they were I must learn to disregard what I have read over the years, I would hope the aircraft were in tip top shape but sometimes the needs of the service overuled that at times . If maintainence standards were as high as pre or post war standards for go or no go I would be very surprised

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Let me clarify as an example were the birds flown in Guadalcanal or Malta up to snuff at all times if they were I must learn to disregard what I have read over the years, I would hope the aircraft were in tip top shape but sometimes the needs of the service overuled that at times . If maintainence standards were as high as pre or post war standards for go or no go I would be very surprised

That would be in a situation where the support of the mission would dictate what would be operated and even in such extreme cases there would be limits to what conditions would be acceptable to complete the mission in lieu of what would get someone immediately killed if the aircraft was operated, and many times there would still be a maintenance office or a factory tech rep there to either make a call or to give some potentially life saving advice.

 

[Ratsel]

I'll even state that most of these birds were not in rough shape but most probably would not pass a modern inspection. They were dented scratshed and chipped and probably not as polished as they might be . Most IMHO would not achieve the book maximun speed in a month of sundays

Have you've seen any new 767's lately, I think you'd be shocked.

 

[pbfoot]

That would be in a situation where the support of the mission would dictate what would be operated and even in such extreme cases there would be limits to what conditions would be acceptable to complete the mission in lieu of what would get someone immediately killed if the aircraft was operated, and many times there would still be a maintenance office or a factory tech rep there to either make a call or to give some potentially life saving advice.

I agree that they would make a pilot fly anything that would be hazourdous to himself but how many took off in less then perfect aircraft in order not to miss the show .

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Well lets put it this way - I doubt in even the most severe situations, you're not going to have someone taking an aircraft not making close to full power or running on one magneto. I don't think anyone would think twice about grounding an aircraft because it was due a timed inspection or overflying an inspection by a few hours.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Have you've seen any new 767's lately, I think you'd be shocked.

You're talking 2 different levels of maintenance and quality.