Realistic max speeds WW2 fighters / Speeds of the late 109s
- Thread starter kettbo
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FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
No worries. Many airliners have standards for cosmetic imperfections that you might see when viewed from the cabin. many of these scratches may look bad but for the most part are non events.
- Thread starter
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kettbo
Senior Airman
not quite the same thing because it does not fly....but the USN PT boats, rated at 40 kts, would often go on patrol with actual power low, hulls foul, make more like 30kts.
My experience is with Bradly Fighting Vehicles and HMMWVs. Some 'deadline' items could be signed off for temporary use under specific conditions.
But these vehicles will not fall out of the sky if something goes wrong.
Plenty of aborts mentioned in JG26 by Caldwell, Germans few pilots or fuel so with aborts the remainder of the mission is short-handed.
Lots of spares for the USAAC later in '44, so even with abouts, 16 flying the mission.
These are the obvious cases; running rough, belching coolant, or electrical power trouble. But lets focus on those that do enter the mission area. How would you tell if your 440 mph rated steed is delivering 100% or 95% or even 90% unless boost rating cannot be reached? Supposing your 109G-14 MW50 with 1.42ata limit reaches max boost at the ideal altitude...could somone chime in with ballpark speeds ideal engine great repair/finish, then some wear, followed by lots of wear then, beat up
Are we talking roughly 5mph per 'stage' of wear?
Mustang guys, same for you
Spitfire fans, ditto
P-47 and P-38 guys....I know you have been silent....sound off
Fw190A/F/G and Dora guys, input appreciated!
My experience is with Bradly Fighting Vehicles and HMMWVs. Some 'deadline' items could be signed off for temporary use under specific conditions.
But these vehicles will not fall out of the sky if something goes wrong.
Plenty of aborts mentioned in JG26 by Caldwell, Germans few pilots or fuel so with aborts the remainder of the mission is short-handed.
Lots of spares for the USAAC later in '44, so even with abouts, 16 flying the mission.
These are the obvious cases; running rough, belching coolant, or electrical power trouble. But lets focus on those that do enter the mission area. How would you tell if your 440 mph rated steed is delivering 100% or 95% or even 90% unless boost rating cannot be reached? Supposing your 109G-14 MW50 with 1.42ata limit reaches max boost at the ideal altitude...could somone chime in with ballpark speeds ideal engine great repair/finish, then some wear, followed by lots of wear then, beat up
Are we talking roughly 5mph per 'stage' of wear?
Mustang guys, same for you
Spitfire fans, ditto
P-47 and P-38 guys....I know you have been silent....sound off
Fw190A/F/G and Dora guys, input appreciated!
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
and your point to this is?? that the 109 w as better than the 51? proves nothing but that the pilot was very, very good. i can give you a quote where veteran US ETO pilots beat green recruits in training sessions using old war weary P40s vs the recruits in new P 51s... and the P 40s were inferior to the 51s.
Yes.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
My brother worked at Pensacola Naval Air Rework Facility (NARF) rebuilding A-4s for the Navy, during the 1973 Yom Kippur War, the Israelis were scarfing up all the A-4s they could find and they were routed through NARF. He said the only things the Israelis wanted to work was the flight controls and the bomb releases (I'm sure engines were included but probably handled elsewhere). In other words, all they wanted was the plane to fly and drop bombs.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
I'm sure though there was some FCF requirement before they were turned over to the IDF and if there was any kind of major airframe issue it would have been at least brought to the attention of the IDF. Usually NARF refirbs are pretty specific on what is required contractually and I do know that Pensacoloa was the SLDM site for the A-4 for many years.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Your opinion. Both aircraft had their strengths and weaknesses.
bobbysocks said:
Explain how and why? If you are going to make such a statement then you have to back it up. Opinions are opinions and nothing else, but if you want to state it as a fact, then back it up.
Tell us why, and only by using facts that prove the point.
Joe, is much more correct than you are. Both aircraft had their strengths and weaknesses.
Yes Sir, you are 100% correct on both statements. =)
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
The only Bf-109 aircraft, when equally loaded, that could really compete with the P-51B/D, outside of having a superb pilot, would be lightened hot rodded Bf-109G-10 and K. These were great performing aircraft but both didn't appear until Sep '44, much too late to help in the war. The P-51B/D had already been ravaging the airspace over Germany for almost a critical year before these planes could become operational. The Germans produced several "what if" aircraft to combat the allied onslaught and battle the P-51, the Fw-190D-9, Ta-152, Bf-109G-10 and K, and several jets. Of all those planes noted, only one could fill the following requirements.
1) Did it have the performance needed?
2) Could it be produced in the quantities needed?
3) Was it available in a timely manner to affect a major impact on the war?
The answer to those questions is the difference from a 'what if' warplane to a truly great one.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
The IDF was only weeks (days?) away of being overran. Certainly a general review of limited critical items had to be approved, however, emphasis was on flight controls and weapons release, unless critical, fuel and hydraulic leaks and everything else, were not to be repaired.
To answer those in regards to the G-10/K-series:
1. yes
2. yes
3. no
Another aspect I see rarely mentioned. In early 1944 the FAT MAN gave fighter command the order to ignore allied fighters and only engage the bombers. With that the great slaughter of Luftwaffe fighters began. Only after the FAT MAN seen the errors of his morphine addicted ways did he start to listen to people like Adolf Galland, Gunter Rall, Erich Hartmann, etc., but by that time it was too late.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Also consider what kind of condition those aircraft were in when the IDF picked them up. They might have gone thru SDLM and placed in flyable storage.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
The G-10/K4 was about as far as the -109 design could stretch. The G-10 was probably the better dogfighter of the two. The P-51 had the endurance and performance advantage at certain altitudes as well as a slightly lower wing loading. While designers were playing with the propeller on latter model K variants of the -109; the P-51H was right around the corner still offering better performance in many areas.
Comparing both aircraft weakness and strengths, they are pretty even but when you place each aircraft in the combat situation they had to be operated in, the P-51 had the advantages across the board to deal with -109G-10/K4 series. All this aside from comparing pilot skills to the numbers of aircraft the Luftwaffe had to face.
To say one is clearly superior to another is far stretched especially if basing it on one dogfight or one given performance perameter.
Comparing both aircraft weakness and strengths, they are pretty even but when you place each aircraft in the combat situation they had to be operated in, the P-51 had the advantages across the board to deal with -109G-10/K4 series. All this aside from comparing pilot skills to the numbers of aircraft the Luftwaffe had to face.
To say one is clearly superior to another is far stretched especially if basing it on one dogfight or one given performance perameter.
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
I am sure they were suppose to be flyable. I believe even foreign air forces provided A-4s. Quality may have been uncertain, but when your country is at risk, planes can fly when otherwise would be grounded. The minimum equipment list goes down significantly.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Especially if you get some O-4 or O-5 to approve the waivers!
davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
Israel came very close to losing that war. I actually flew the first mission the US did in support of Israel during the war and actually made national news. Later, when we were flying support out of Lajes (Azores), when landing at Tel Aviv, we were off loading weapons and the Israel helping us told us they would be fired in 30 min. Close FEBA (forward edge of the battle area)!
I was wimpy MAC guy, not a manly TAC guy. Interestingly, they had placed Navy carriers in the Med in case the Libyans tried to intervene with our flights. Over Cyprus we picked up Israeli fighter escorts into Tel Aviv.
I was wimpy MAC guy, not a manly TAC guy. Interestingly, they had placed Navy carriers in the Med in case the Libyans tried to intervene with our flights. Over Cyprus we picked up Israeli fighter escorts into Tel Aviv.
FLYBOYJ
"THE GREAT GAZOO"
Israel came very close to losing that war. I actually flew the first mission the US did in support of Israel during the war and actually made national news. Later, when we were flying support out of Lajes (Azores), when landing at Tel Aviv, we were off loading weapons and the Israel helping us told us they would be fired in 30 min. Close FEBA (forward edge of the battle area)!
Pretty cool!
I did a little work with scooters before I left Mojave, the company I worked for did target tow for the Luftwaffe. We were runnin F-100s, replaced them with scooters.
Photo BAE Systems Douglas A-4 Skyhawk N434FS
Mr davparir i am afraid this statement is not accurate. Any Bf 109 with Mw50 was a tough opponent for P51 if numbers and combat cituation were equal . That means variants with Db605AM and ASM ,available from late spring 44.
Also G-10,and K were not lightened versions , were standard versions
The answer to your requirements is Fw 190 C (Db603A no turbosupercharger) Could be in action summer 43 , both airframe and engine were already in production by late 42, ~700km/h 7000m. Political decisions prevented it .Also the late appereance of D9 was a matter of political decisions and not technical.
Mr Flyboy J
There were some finals improvements for the 109 family that would result in a performance near that supposedly P51H offered
Also about p51H . The German 'what ifs' failed to appear in number in combat due production dificulties , political misjudgements, lack of fuel etc... P 51H had not such limiting factors but still did not appear in any combat, no WW2, no Korea (where p51d was prefered .....) ,no peripheral conflicts . the conclusions yours.... Also the other hot rod ,F8F , also was not prefered by anyone (save the French) for actual combat. Coincidence ? Maybe .
