Replace Me-109 with Me-155?

[riacrato]

But like you said, it was fast! It compares to the Mosquito.

From early 1944 only Me 410 day fighters were delivered. The Me 410 achieved some great successes as a Zerstorer. One usually reads how it failed completely against the American Mustangs. But which German fighters succeeded?

If it had been up to me both the Me 110 as the Ju 88 would be replaced by the superior Me 410. Just so you know where I stand. (It's a lonely place I admit )

Kris

Very lonely indeed. Can the 410 be a good nightfighter? I think not or at least it was never deemed worth trying. And the Ju 88 bomber versions at least don't eat up two high performance engines that would be put to much better use in a Fw 190 airframe. The only thing that would've really worked for me was the original Me 210 as planned as a fastbomber capable of divebombing, with limited numbers used as heavy fighters (there were afterall still many un- or limitedly escorted bomber missions).

 

[riacrato]

I don't think it can be done.

American turbo chargers were reliable but the compact part takes a bit of doing. The Turbocharger itself is not all that large but the required ducting and intercooler with it's ducting add up to a considerable increase in volume. Using a liquid intercooler can make things somewhat smaller but you still need another radiator for the intercooler.
I don't think anybody made a compact turbocharger installation after 1945.

BMW 801 TJ: The installation is only moderately longer than that of the standard 801 D.

 

[davebender]

Why? Competent organizations learn from their mistakes. The Zerstorer multipurpose aircraft concept did not work and Germany learned this lesson during the first year of WWII. Just as RAF Bomber Command quickly learned that unescorted day bombers would get slaughtered.

 

[DonL]

Why? Competent organizations learn from their mistakes. The Zerstorer multipurpose aircraft concept did not work and Germany learned this lesson during the first year of WWII. Just as RAF Bomber Command quickly learned that unescorted day bombers would get slaughtered.

Ok other question?
What do you think the LW was more in need from 1941-1944, a good longrange fighter and nightfighter or a fast lightbomber?


The Ju 88 could do all this missions. Later on some missions can do the FW 190 fighterbomber.
I see no pros for producing an aircraft only for lightbombing.
The same question goes to the Do 217. Could this aircraft anything realy better than the Ju 88? So much better to get it in production? For germany raw materials and manufactoring is an essential goal, you can't compare this with the economics of the USA. Economization and the focus on multirole aircrafts are essential.
And the Me 210/410 showed only performance with an DB 603.
Also you can't forget the production. It was never planed to let the Me 110 in service. They wanted this material to produce the replacement aircraft in greater numbers.
But the Me 210/410 showed not enough performance for a total replacement!

The whole story of the Me 210/410 with it's design problems and little performance with DB 605 engines was a mistake.

 

[davebender]

The Luftwaffe needed three major combat aircraft types during the second half of WWII. These aircraft types maintain air superiority and support Heer operations.

Day Fighter.
Night Fighter.
Light Bomber.

In addition the German Navy needs a long range aircraft for maritime recon and maritime bombing. The Do-217 could fill this role if the KM are willing to fund the program. A less expensive alternative to the He-177 and the Do-217 is ready for mass production by the end of 1940.

 

[DonL]

The Luftwaffe needed three major combat aircraft types during the second half of WWII. These aircraft types maintain air superiority and support Heer operations.

Day Fighter.
Night Fighter.
Light Bomber.

In addition the German Navy needs a long range aircraft for maritime recon and maritime bombing. The Do-217 could fill this role if the KM are willing to fund the program. A less expensive alternative to the He-177 and the Do-217 is ready for mass production by the end of 1940.

I disagree.

For support of Heer operation are the Ju87 and Henschel 129 as direct support.
And for me it's important the first half of the war because that's the basics you could built on.

The ideal for me between Me 109/ FW 190 and Ju 88 is the FW 187.
This aircraft could be longrange fighter, light destroyer and nightfighter. All other aircrafts are compromises in the direction lightbomber/destroyer. And i can't see the pros to only produce a fast lightbomber sorry.

Also to my opinion a He 177 with normal 4 engine layout is a better alternativ to the Do 217. The Do 217 had not much more range than the Ju 88, but the He 177 could load much more fuel as an navyfighter only loaded with torpedos and you have an aircraft for strategic bombing.

My focus is more to the multirole aircrafts and I think the germans had some fine designs as multirole aircrafts.
This would be much better for the production.

 

[Civettone]

Very lonely indeed. Can the 410 be a good nightfighter? I think not or at least it was never deemed worth trying. And the Ju 88 bomber versions at least don't eat up two high performance engines that would be put to much better use in a Fw 190 airframe. The only thing that would've really worked for me was the original Me 210 as planned as a fastbomber capable of divebombing, with limited numbers used as heavy fighters (there were afterall still many un- or limitedly escorted bomber missions).

At the time of the Me 410 the Ju 88/188 switched to BMW 801s, similar to the DB 603 of the Me 410.
Now riacrato, as to the Me 410 as a night fighter. I started a thread at LEMB about it. There were several opinions that the Me 410 would not have been suited as a night fighter. Most of these reasons proved to be inaccurate as the plane was a success as a nocturnal intruder. It also had good performance, ceiling, etc. It would not have been good enough to catch a Mosquito but no other German NF was able anyway.
I have seen a plan of the Me 410 converted to a NF. The installation would weight 80 kg and the expected speed loss would have been around 20 kmh. This would make the NF still capable of speeds of at least 600 kmh. It would have a max range of 1750 km which would put it in the range of the Ju 88G.
So the Me 410 would have been perfectly able to replace both the Me 110 as the Ju 88R/G. Same goes for the He 219 and Do 217N. Reducing the number of types in production is of utmost important for the war economy. And while we are it, why not take another look at bomber production: Ju 88, He 111 and Do 217? But I will give my 2 cents on that some other time...

Why? Competent organizations learn from their mistakes. The Zerstorer multipurpose aircraft concept did not work and Germany learned this lesson during the first year of WWII. Just as RAF Bomber Command quickly learned that unescorted day bombers would get slaughtered.

Yeah, I would agree with you Dave. But let's take another look at the Zerstörer principle. What is it? It is essentially a heavy multifunctional fighter, capable of destroying fighters but also bomber escort, ground attack and reconaissance. But look at American heavy fighters like the P-38? Isn't that a Zerstörer? Ok, maybe it's a single-person aircraft but other than that... And what about the Me 262 or British Meteor? Or an F-4 Phantom if you will?

The whole story of the Me 210/410 with it's design problems and little performance with DB 605 engines was a mistake.

The Me 210 had DB 601s, not DB 605s. However, when the last serie of the Me 210 got the lengthened fuselage and the DB 605 the Me design finally came of age. The Me 410 could do things no other aircraft in the world was able to. Not even the best aircraft in the world, the DH Mosquito 8)

Kris

 

[Shortround6]

Blenheim Mk IV. This is the newer version contemporary with the Me-410A.
266 mph Max Speed.
~200 mph Cruise Speed
1,000 lb bomb bay.
Cannot dive bomb.
2% chance to hit a 100 meter target circle when attacking at high level.
25% chance to hit a 100 meter target circle when attacking at low level.

Me-410A.
388 mph Max Speed.
365 mph Cruise Speed.
2,200 lb (i.e. 1,000 kg) bomb bay.
Can dive bomb (60 degree angle).
50% chance to hit a 50 meter target circle (assuming accuracy similiar to Ju-88A dive bomber).

I would hope that the 410 was better seeing as how it was a number of years newer and not really a contemporary. The 410 also had about twice the power.
But once again there seems some picking and choosing of stats. While you could fit a single 2205lb bomb in the 410 or 2 1100lbs it would also only take 2 550lb bombs or 8 110 lb bombs. Standard bomb load was 1100lbs according to one source with the 2205 lb bomb load carried in overload condition. The Blenheim can carry two 500lb inside the bomb bay and another 340lb under the wings at the same time.
I notice you don't mention range which may be 400 miles further for the Blenheim while carrying a "standard" load.
Granted the Blenheim can't survive long in defended airspace but it can reach over water target that the 410 couldn't.
If you are going to claim a plane was the "Best" light bomber of it's time you might want to tell us what you are comparing it to, and not the 3-4 year older bomber I brought up that can carry the same bomb load on medium to long range missions and out range it. If you can't reach the target it doesn't matter what kind of accuracy you have at short range.

 

[Shortround6]

BMW 801 TJ: The installation is only moderately longer than that of the standard 801 D.

Thank you, I stand corrected.

 

[Shortround6]

The Ju 88 could do all this missions. Later on some missions can do the FW 190 fighterbomber.
I see no pros for producing an aircraft only for lightbombing.
The same question goes to the Do 217. Could this aircraft anything realy better than the Ju 88?

Carry a lot more bombs?
Or carry the same amount of bombs further?

 

[Shortround6]

For support of Heer operation are the Ju87 and Henschel 129 as direct support.
And for me it's important the first half of the war because that's the basics you could built on.

The Henschel 129 may be another plane that gets a lot more attention than it deserved.
One description claims it was only about 20mph faster than a JU 87D, was much inferior in maneuverability, had engines that were less reliable and as a bomber carried a smaller bomb load than the Ju 87D. It was sturdy and had good armor protection but part of it's "fame" may stem for the variety of cannon that were carried for anti-tank work.

 

[riacrato]

How does the Hs 129 get a lot of attention? I think it's getting rather little. It was an acceptable plane plagued mostly by weak engines. But then, the fact it had these otherwise unused engines was one reason for its existance.

It was never meant to carry a bombload and it is not a Stuka. The only Ju 87 version it can be compared to is the Ju 87 G and even that is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Shortround6]

How does the Hs 129 get a lot of attention? I think it's getting rather little. It was an acceptable plane plagued mostly by weak engines. But then, the fact it had these otherwise unused engines was one reason for its existance.

It was never meant to carry a bombload and it is not a Stuka. The only Ju 87 version it can be compared to is the Ju 87 G and even that is a bit of a stretch.

It gets a lot of attention from modelers and war gamers. In part because of the variety of weapons it was fitted with. With under 900 made in about 2 1/2 years production just about kept up with losses and from what I have read there were never more than 5 active stafflen equipped with it at any one time.
No disrespect to the pilots and ground crews but did the HS 129 really accomplish much more than 900 other aircraft could have?
I am not really comparing it to a Stuka as a dive bomber but as a close support aircraft it would need more than just guns. Considering that the HS 126 had a bomb dispenser/bay that could hold ten 22lb bombs instead of a camera and/or a 110lb bomb out side the plane and that FW 189s were fitted to carry four 110lb bombs. It doesn't seem far fetched that some sort of bomb load wasn't considered when designing the plane. He 51s carried six 22lb bombs in Spain and the old He 45s and 46s also carried bomb loads of 440-660lbs. The He 70 also had an internal bomb bay.

For anti-personnel use the old HS 123 could carry a pair of containers each holding 92 (?) 4.4 lb bombs while the D model Stuka used containers with 96 bombs each. The Hs 129 maxed out with 96 under the fuselage in packs of 24 in place of the big under fuselage gun and a pack of 24 under each wing. Or it could carry four 110lb bombs under the fuselage and one under each wing.

When it comes down to it, it was a 1400hp airplane with a lot of armor while the Ju 87D was a 1400hp airplane with less armor.

 

[Civettone]

Shortround, you are mistaken. The Hs 129 was designed for a small bomb load and it carried it for many missions. The 30 mm cannons came later when available. It carried the same SD 2 cluster/butterfly bombs.

But like you said, the Hs 129 cannot be compared with the Ju 87. The Ju 87 only became a close support aircraft later on in the war and only a tank destroyer with the Ju 87G. I would compare the Hs 129 a bit more with the Il-2. Both armored bathtubs (though the Hs 129 better protected). The Ilyushin also carries an amazingly light bomb load but understandable due to the weight of the armour.

A couple more things: the Hs 129 was not really underpowered and the engines proved to be VERY reliable. And the engine was carefully chosen as it had the best power-weight ratio. And not because several were captured. I hope one day all these myths will disappear.

Kris

 

[tomo pauk]

Kris, man, Hs-129 competes with such stellar power-houses as Ba.88, or Blenheim, when we talk about power-to-weight ratios.

Power-to-weight ratio of an engine is of secondary importance to the power-to-weight ratio of a plane.

 

[riacrato]

Shortround, you are mistaken. The Hs 129 was designed for a small bomb load and it carried it for many missions. The 30 mm cannons came later when available. It carried the same SD 2 cluster/butterfly bombs.

But like you said, the Hs 129 cannot be compared with the Ju 87. The Ju 87 only became a close support aircraft later on in the war and only a tank destroyer with the Ju 87G. I would compare the Hs 129 a bit more with the Il-2. Both armored bathtubs (though the Hs 129 better protected). The Ilyushin also carries an amazingly light bomb load but understandable due to the weight of the armour.

A couple more things: the Hs 129 was not really underpowered and the engines proved to be VERY reliable. And the engine was carefully chosen as it had the best power-weight ratio. And not because several were captured. I hope one day all these myths will disappear.

Kris

Yes I led him to that what I intended to write was "LARGE bombload" as it was never meant to attack the same targets the Stukas did. Nevertheless iirc the original solicitation asked mainly for cannons and armor.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcUlsNBeiPo
But about the Hs 129 not being underpowered: care to elaborate?

 

[davebender]

Even if the Me-410 fuselage can be modified to provde space for radar equipment and operators what does this accomplish that the Ju-88G cannot? It's the same reason Germany did not mass produce the Ta-154 and He-219 night fighter aircraft. The Me-262 B-2 (stretched fuselage) is the next major advance in German night fighter performance.

 

[Shortround6]

A couple more things: the Hs 129 was not really underpowered and the engines proved to be VERY reliable. And the engine was carefully chosen as it had the best power-weight ratio. And not because several were captured. I hope one day all these myths will disappear.

Kris

I guess it was no more under powered than any other 11,000lb plane with 1400hp. 7.8lbs/hp.
Certainly many other bombers and attack aircraft had power to weight ratios that were no better.

Some accounts say that they did have quite a bit of trouble with the initial units in North Africa but then quite a few engines had trouble in North Africa.
The engine was chosen because it was the only engine available in any quantity in the power and weight range needed.
The Germans hadn't captured several, they had captured thousands and had captured the factory that made them.
No German engine or other French engine (except the Hispano-Suiza 14AB) or Czechoslovakian engine was of a suitable size or power to be used. The Hispano was available in small numbers and may have had an even worse reputation for reliability.

 

[Civettone]

Shortround, I agree completely. The engine did have some problems in North Africa but after some modifications it served the Hs 129 very well. On the Eastern Front the Hs 129 was very reliable, able to perform several missions a day!

Dave, no modification of the Me 410 fuselage was needed. Two man crew. The Me 410 would have performed substantially better than the Ju 88R/G, even better than the G-6 with Jumo 213: max speed of 600+ kmh. Also superior climb rate, ceiling, etc.

Tomislav:
1. Tests of the Hs 129A with the Argus engines showed it being 12% underpowered. The Hs 129B received a power upgrade from two 460 HP engines to two 750 HP engines.
2. If the Hs 129B was underpowered, it would have been strange to install a 1000 kg gun under the fuselage. Even the Germans weren't that desperate.

Kris

 

[davebender]

That's fine but what about internal space for radar equipment?