Replace Me-109 with Me-155?

[DonL]

Please post that chart of the PzGr. 1940.

The problem with Knaben as for ALL other mines was transportation from the mines.

The transport from Narvic was still intact. Sorry my sources tells Knaben was dead. Why were the problems with molybdänerz relevant for the german steel economy at 1944? There are more hints that the steel was bridle and many many projects suffered from enough molybdänerz.

Ok next, the Ju 89 was called the Ural bomber for a reason. Could it get there? No, it had a limited range. Fine, who killed the program? Udet? No, my friend, it was Wever himself who started the Bomber A program which lead to the He 177.

I didn't told that Udet killed the Ju 89 program, i told he wanted the He 177 to divebomb and that's a matter of fact! It was an order from Udet himself!
And yes Wever started the Bomber A. But that's not an argument that the Ju 89 was a total failure. The bird was in the category of the B17, more engine power is all you need. That are the same arguments against the FW 187, because all compare this bird with Jumo 210 engines, what is absurd.

It is not that our opinions are miles apart, yours is simply based on outdated and cliche information. Don't mean to be rude here. I am just saying that I used to share your opinion but I have gradually moved away from it and have become a bit more critical to the standard cliches I usually read.

I don't want to be rude as well, but I think I have my arguments documented by many sources, and realy, I don't think I'm naive and basing my arguments on cliches!

 

[Civettone]

It was the transport to Narvik. Manpower shortages. The Germans had enough mines for Ni, Cr, Mo, ... but they couldnt get the material back to Germany. The Ju 89 could not get the job done and I already explained why. Wever started the Bomber A program because of it. C'mon, it's clear. The Ju 89 was powered by the most powerful engine at the time. Freezing the design for two more years to give it Jumo 211 would be stupid. There are several good aircraft designs in history which failed because of a lack of engine power. So be it.
And it's fine, you're not naive. Will post the chart when I find it again. But I already gave you the approx numbers. Or you don't believe me?

Kris

 

[DonL]

The Ju 89 was powered by the most powerful engine at the time. Freezing the design for two more years to give it Jumo 211 would be stupid. There are several good aircraft designs in history which failed because of a lack of engine power. So be it.

No Kris, that's a little bit to easy! Please tell me one important german aircraft design prior the war, besides the Bf 109D, that was powered by a Jumo 210 engine at the begin of the war? And al,l realy all designs were tested first with the Jumo 210 engine and were upgraded as the Jumo 211 engine was available!

That isn't an argument for me.

There are several good aircraft designs in history which failed because of a lack of engine power. So be it

No, they had not failed, they had no real chance, or it was political like the FW 187, because Willy Messerschmitt was the world best designer, from the opinion of Udet, Milch and Göring.
What a brilliant designer he was had shown the crap of Bf 210/410. That's my opinion.
In germany Messerschmitt was under total protection from the RLM and you arn't a brilliant designer just with one very good design just like the Bf 109.
Heinkel and Focker Wulf (Kurt Tank) were more then one time outmaneuverd with better designs compare to Messerschmitt.

 

[spicmart]

No, they had not failed, they had no real chance, or it was political like the FW 187, because Willy Messerschmitt was the world best designer, from the opinion of Udet, Milch and Göring.
What a brilliant designer he was had shown the crap of Bf 210/410. That's my opinion.
In germany Messerschmitt was under total protection from the RLM and you arn't a brilliant designer just with one very good design just like the Bf 109.
Heinkel and Focker Wulf (Kurt Tank) were more then one time outmaneuverd with better designs compare to Messerschmitt.

Second that.

 

[Civettone]

The Fw 187 was chosen because of political reasons?? Hahaha, not again, please!! How many times more do we have to read this?? More plausible reasons for the Fw 187 failing have been discussed on this forum several times...

Just an old ,,, wait for it ... CLICHE!!!

Kris

 

[DonL]

was not!

You should read some books. For example Dietmar Hermann, Peter Petrick, then you know what is cliche or not cliche. And the Fw 187 is only one example for many decissions. So we can discuss this in an other thread.

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/westland-whirlwind-vs-fw-187-vs-p-38-a-26065.html

 

[Civettone]

We have discussed the Fw 187 times before. Not going there again. It was not politcs.
And you are wrong about simply upgrading aircraft with more powerful engines. We have been through that several times before on this forum. I am wasting my time.

Kris

 

[DonL]

And you are wrong about simply upgrading aircraft with more powerful engines

Bf 109; Jumo 210, DB 601 A-E, DB 605A-D and DB 603
Ju 88; DB 600, Jumo 211, BMW 801, Jumo 213A-E
Me 110; Ju 210, DB 601 A-E, DB 605A
FW 190; BMW 801, Jumo 213A, DB 603
Me 210/410; DB 601, DB 605, DB 603

I can't see your argument!

We have discussed the Fw 187 times before. Not going there again. It was not politcs.

I think it is allowed to have an other opinion and I have sources for this opinion.I accept other opinions. But it is not a fact that is was not politics!

 

[Civettone]

rephrase it to heavier engines. What about the Fw 190? Not Me is it?

finished. Good luck!
Kris

 

[riacrato]

And like I said, I have my doubts turbochargers need more special alloys than turbine jets. The Germans were able to produce thousands of those so why not a few hundred turbochargers?
I think the answer might be more complex...

German turbocharger design was not very mature imo. They were overweight and overly complex beasts and too large for the small airframes Germany tyically used. The exception being maybe the 801 TJ. But that came too late.

 

[davebender]

The only thing wrong with the Me-210C / Me-410A light bomber is that it was forced to operate as a fighter vs American B-17s and their escorts. It compares well to contemporary light bombers in service from January 1943 onward.

 

[davebender]

Did anyone produce a compact and reliable turbocharger installation for a fighter aircraft prior to 1945?

 

[DonL]

The only thing wrong with the Me-210C / Me-410A light bomber is that it was forced to operate as a fighter vs American B-17s and their escorts. It compares well to contemporary light bombers in service from January 1943 onward.

But they were not planed as lightbombers. They should be the direct replacement of the ME 110.
And the Me 210 suffered massive design problems, they both were worst aircrafts in the nightfighter/escortfighter role. And there were other aircrafts that could do the zerstörer and lightbombing role. This aircrafts were a lost in materials nothing more. They couldn't perform their roles!

 

[Shortround6]

Did anyone produce a compact and reliable turbocharger installation for a fighter aircraft prior to 1945?

I don't think it can be done.

American turbo chargers were reliable but the compact part takes a bit of doing. The Turbocharger itself is not all that large but the required ducting and intercooler with it's ducting add up to a considerable increase in volume. Using a liquid intercooler can make things somewhat smaller but you still need another radiator for the intercooler.
I don't think anybody made a compact turbocharger installation after 1945.

 

[davebender]

The Me-210 / Me-410 had dive brakes, a bomb bay and a dive bomber sight. If that isn't a light bomber then what is?

 

[Shortround6]

The only thing wrong with the Me-210C / Me-410A light bomber is that it was forced to operate as a fighter vs American B-17s and their escorts. It compares well to contemporary light bombers in service from January 1943 onward.

How does it compare and to what aircraft?

The bomb bay may have been a bit cramped and gave some what limited options. Range may not have been all it could be either.

While it was certainly fast it's standard bombload wasn't much better than a Blenheim and it couldn't carry it as far. A pair of 1750-1900hp engines seems a steep price to pay for a 1100lb standard bomb load (2205lb in overload) and a range of just over 1000miles.

 

[Civettone]

But like you said, it was fast! It compares to the Mosquito.

From early 1944 only Me 410 day fighters were delivered. The Me 410 achieved some great successes as a Zerstorer. One usually reads how it failed completely against the American Mustangs. But which German fighters succeeded?

If it had been up to me both the Me 110 as the Ju 88 would be replaced by the superior Me 410. Just so you know where I stand. (It's a lonely place I admit )

Kris

 

[davebender]

Blenheim Mk IV. This is the newer version contemporary with the Me-410A.
266 mph Max Speed.
~200 mph Cruise Speed
1,000 lb bomb bay.
Cannot dive bomb.
2% chance to hit a 100 meter target circle when attacking at high level.
25% chance to hit a 100 meter target circle when attacking at low level.

Me-410A.
388 mph Max Speed.
365 mph Cruise Speed.
2,200 lb (i.e. 1,000 kg) bomb bay.
Can dive bomb (60 degree angle).
50% chance to hit a 50 meter target circle (assuming accuracy similiar to Ju-88A dive bomber).

Which aircraft would you prefer for attacking a well defended bridge across the Meuse River?

 

[DonL]

But like you said, it was fast! It compares to the Mosquito.

From early 1944 only Me 410 day fighters were delivered. The Me 410 achieved some great successes as a Zerstorer. One usually reads how it failed completely against the American Mustangs. But which German fighters succeeded?

If it had been up to me both the Me 110 as the Ju 88 would be replaced by the superior Me 410. Just so you know where I stand. (It's a lonely place I admit )

You should read some books before you make such statements.

Messerschmidt Bf 110, Me 210, Me 410. Die Messerschmitt-Zerstörer und ihre Konkurrenten: Amazon.de: Heinz Mankau, Peter Petrick: Bücher
Focke-Wulf Fw 187. Der vergessene Hochleistungsjäger: Amazon.de: Dietmar Hermann, Peter Petrick: Bücher

Also I want to know with wich fact you can claim a Me 410 as a Nightfighter was faster then a Mosquito or a Ju 88 G6? Please show some facts! And please facts with a Me 410 as NF and the equipment of a NF not some "dayfighter" version.

And to confirm this effective design, it was developed since 1937, first flight 1939, going in production 1943.
What an effective and superior design, which wasn't able to perform all roles of the Me 110 as replacement and was in need of a DB 603 for a little performance.
And then to say the FW 187 is inferior and it wasn't some political decision.

 

[Milosh]

Blenheim Mk IV. This is the newer version contemporary with the Me-410A.
266 mph Max Speed.
~200 mph Cruise Speed
1,000 lb bomb bay.
Cannot dive bomb.
2% chance to hit a 100 meter target circle when attacking at high level.
25% chance to hit a 100 meter target circle when attacking at low level.

Me-410A.
388 mph Max Speed.
365 mph Cruise Speed.
2,200 lb (i.e. 1,000 kg) bomb bay.
Can dive bomb (60 degree angle).
50% chance to hit a 50 meter target circle (assuming accuracy similiar to Ju-88A dive bomber).

Which aircraft would you prefer for attacking a well defended bridge across the Meuse River?

I didn't know the Me410 was around in 1939.