Required headwind for carrier aircraft launch?

jetcal1 said:

Then, I would say no such luck with anything before the Essex class.

However, the H4 series installed on the Essex class had to be capable of a literal no-wind launch as they were launching F6F's out of the hangar bay which would mean a much shorter Cat stroke (Restricted by width of hangar bay) and into a 90 degree crosswind.

So, I'm going to say yes! The Essex class could launch a WWII vintage piston engine airplane in zero wind conditions to probably to around 75-90 knots or so depending on if it was in the hangar bay and weight of the aircraft. (I'd imagine the H4 on a CVE could probably make easy work of an FM-2!)

(Please keep in mind, this is only based on what I've seen in various newsreels and being aware of the H4, I'm not an expert on catapults, not did I stay at a Holiday Inn.)

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WWII aircraft carriers rarely used their catapults. In fact the Japanese carriers did not have them. The thwart-ship cats on the Essex class were removed to free up space for more useful functions.
Fuel loads and bomb loads were adjusted to suit wind conditions. A reduction in range would have to be accepted. Due to the shorter deck run the first planes off the deck often carried lighter loads. This why part of an SDB strike would often carry 500 lb bombs while the rest carried 1000 lb.

pinsog said:

Hello. I saw that movie last week, if I hadn't been with someone else I would have left. They got the names right, it happened in the pacific between the US and Japan. That is about all they got right. How much wind you need depends on each aircraft, how much deck they have and how heavy they are loaded. A lightly loaded Zero needs much less deck and wind than a Wildcat. An early model Kate with a torpedo needed every foot and every knot of wind possible, I imagine a Devastator with a torpedo was the same way.

Put the movie Midway in the same category as Star Trek, Star Wars and Bugs Bunny (although I could believe in a talking rabbit over most of the crap in that movie)

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A strange write up.

I am a history buff and I have read "First Team", "Shattered Sword", and "At Dawn We Slept", and I found this movie surprisingly accurate. In two hours, they could only provide a Cliffs Notes version of the time period shown so much had to be omitted (I wonder if there is an uncut version, I think that would be interesting). If it had included everything I would want, from the exceptional repair of the Yorktown to the late attacks on the Japanese ships, the movie would probably be four hours long (think "Gettysburg")! An interesting point I didn't know was that the carriers first learned of some damage to the Akagi when radio intercepts indicated Nagumo was on another ship. I would have liked them to show the B-26 flying down the deck of the Akagi, machine gunning the crew. It would have been quite exciting. b-26 akagi - Google Search

I thought the aircraft going into the drink on take off a bit questionable but on second thought probably not unreasonable or uncommon. Marginal performance (e.g. weapons load) meant high risks and little room for error and I am sure flight ops during wartime was a helter skelter situation. Errors can be made.

davparlr said:

A strange write up.

I am a history buff and I have read "First Team", "Shattered Sword", and "At Dawn We Slept", and I found this movie surprisingly accurate. In two hours, they could only provide a Cliffs Notes version of the time period shown so much had to be omitted (I wonder if there is an uncut version, I think that would be interesting). If it had included everything I would want, from the exceptional repair of the Yorktown to the late attacks on the Japanese ships, the movie would probably be four hours long (think "Gettysburg")! An interesting point I didn't know was that the carriers first learned of some damage to the Akagi when radio intercepts indicated Nagumo was on another ship. I would have liked them to show the B-26 flying down the deck of the Akagi, machine gunning the crew. It would have been quite exciting. b-26 akagi - Google Search

I thought the aircraft going into the drink on take off a bit questionable but on second thought probably not unreasonable or uncommon. Marginal performance (e.g. weapons load) meant high risks and little room for error and I am sure flight ops during wartime was a helter skelter situation. Errors can be made.

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Cliche after cliche. Dick Best is a foul mouthed insubordinate jerk who knows the torpedoes are faulty months before anyone else. Japanese AA shot down more planes during this movie than during the entire Pacific war. Zeroes shot down a couple. During the first attack AA shot down 80 planes out of a 35 plane raid. Instead of 4 B26's doing a torpedo run, 20 or 30 do a bombing run from 10,000 feet. The last attack on Hiryu would have been more realistic if Daffy Duck was fly the plane, Dick Best dropped his bomb from 10 feet and the bomb trapeze under the plane hit the Hiryu deck as he pulled out. He insulted Gene Lindsey and talked to him like he was a retard. And his own rear gunner was a coward that needed a good cussing to fly the Hiryu mission. At least they fought in the Pacific, I fully expected the battle to occur off of Cuba in the Gulf of Mexico. I'm thinking of getting a lobotomy so I can forget I ever saw it.

pinsog said:

Cliche after cliche. Dick Best is a foul mouthed insubordinate jerk who knows the torpedoes are faulty months before anyone else. Japanese AA shot down more planes during this movie than during the entire Pacific war. Zeroes shot down a couple. During the first attack AA shot down 80 planes out of a 35 plane raid. Instead of 4 B26's doing a torpedo run, 20 or 30 do a bombing run from 10,000 feet. The last attack on Hiryu would have been more realistic if Daffy Duck was fly the plane, Dick Best dropped his bomb from 10 feet and the bomb trapeze under the plane hit the Hiryu deck as he pulled out. He insulted Gene Lindsey and talked to him like he was a retard. And his own rear gunner was a coward that needed a good cussing to fly the Hiryu mission. At least they fought in the Pacific, I fully expected the battle to occur off of Cuba in the Gulf of Mexico. I'm thinking of getting a lobotomy so I can forget I ever saw it.

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I havnt seen it, and need assurances that it addresses the issues of the evil west, global warming, toxic masculinity and other woke issues before I do.

Reluctant Poster said:

WWII aircraft carriers rarely used their catapults. In fact the Japanese carriers did not have them. The thwart-ship cats on the Essex class were removed to free up space for more useful functions.
Fuel loads and bomb loads were adjusted to suit wind conditions. A reduction in range would have to be accepted. Due to the shorter deck run the first planes off the deck often carried lighter loads. This why part of an SDB strike would often carry 500 lb bombs while the rest carried 1000 lb.

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Thanks, I'm aware the hangarbay cats were pulled. (The pilots didn't like them either.) Part of the issue was time. A deck run was still considered to be adequate versus the amount of time that it took to hookup the bridles, get the aircraft into tensions, etc., even in the early 80's our ship's C-1A made deck run takeoffs off the angle instead of using the cats. (It was also to avoid fatiguing the airframe.) However, I believe the CVE/CVL classes did make much greater use of their cats's especially in the Atlantic where the launch cycles were geared towards cyclic ops and the shorter deck of the CVE.

(The launch bar was, in my opinion almost as important an innovation as the angled deck. The time savings over the old bridle and frangible holdback is incredible.)

pinsog said:

Cliche after cliche. Dick Best is a foul mouthed insubordinate jerk who knows the torpedoes are faulty months before anyone else. Japanese AA shot down more planes during this movie than during the entire Pacific war. Zeroes shot down a couple. During the first attack AA shot down 80 planes out of a 35 plane raid. Instead of 4 B26's doing a torpedo run, 20 or 30 do a bombing run from 10,000 feet. The last attack on Hiryu would have been more realistic if Daffy Duck was fly the plane, Dick Best dropped his bomb from 10 feet and the bomb trapeze under the plane hit the Hiryu deck as he pulled out. He insulted Gene Lindsey and talked to him like he was a retard. And his own rear gunner was a coward that needed a good cussing to fly the Hiryu mission. At least they fought in the Pacific, I fully expected the battle to occur off of Cuba in the Gulf of Mexico. I'm thinking of getting a lobotomy so I can forget I ever saw it.

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All you say is true and the movie did have some fluff, but the show did bring out some important points that are often overlooked on discussion of Midway (e.g., the ships could not do flying ops while avoiding early, often suicidal attacks) and certainly tried to duplicate the hardware, and was much better than Pearl Harbor (except any movie is watchable with Kate Beckinsale in it). If you can't enjoy what is good and ignore what is not, you will be pretty miserable with most war movies, like the excellent "The Bridges of Toko-ri" with its mishmash in Japan and the use of Panthers in stead of Banshees, and I think I spotted an angled deck carrier.

pbehn said:

I havnt seen it, and need assurances that it addresses the issues of the evil west, global warming, toxic masculinity and other woke issues before I do.

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davparlr said:

All you say is true and the movie did have some fluff, but the show did bring out some important points that are often overlooked on discussion of Midway (e.g., the ships could not do flying ops while avoiding early, often suicidal attacks) and certainly tried to duplicate the hardware, and was much better than Pearl Harbor (except any movie is watchable with Kate Beckinsale in it). If you can't enjoy what is good and ignore what is not, you will be pretty miserable with most war movies, like the excellent "The Bridges of Toko-ri" with its mishmash in Japan and the use of Panthers in stead of Banshees, and I think I spotted an angled deck carrier.

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I understand your point, but The Bridges of Tokyo-ri" was from the 1950's, I expect better from modern movies. I understand some changes, in Blackhawk Down they had 1 guy that did several things instead of the multiple people that did each job, I get that for length of movie etc. But why 30 B26's at 10,000 feet dropping bombs instead of 4 at wave height dropping torpedoes? 4 on low level torpedo run swarmed by Zeroes would have been more exciting. Why shoot down everyone with AA instead of Zeroes? Why shoot down everyone with AA before they dropped bombs instead of swarming them with Zeroes after? Why have Dick Best a foul mouthed insubordinate jerk instead of a respectful professional prewar pilot like he was? Why drop his bomb from 10 feet instead of 1500 (or whatever)? Why have his rear gunner be a coward that didn't want to fly Hiryu mission? Why have Best insult Gene Lindsey? It's changing a story for no reason whatsoever.

Just my opinion. If you enjoyed the movie that's good for you. Personally I wasted 2.5 hours of my life that I could have wasted at home watching a Hallmark Channel Christmas movie.

pinsog said:

Why have Dick Best a foul mouthed insubordinate jerk instead of a respectful professional prewar pilot like he was? Why have his rear gunner be a coward that didn't want to fly Hiryu mission? .

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I see they addressed the issue of toxic masculinity, they cant resist it.

Reluctant Poster said:

WWII aircraft carriers rarely used their catapults. In fact the Japanese carriers did not have them. The thwart-ship cats on the Essex class were removed to free up space for more useful functions.
Fuel loads and bomb loads were adjusted to suit wind conditions. A reduction in range would have to be accepted. Due to the shorter deck run the first planes off the deck often carried lighter loads. This why part of an SDB strike would often carry 500 lb bombs while the rest carried 1000 lb.

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The pre-Essex class USN carriers had low capacity catapults that were of little use with their 1942 aircraft, most of which exceeded the catapult weight limits. CV-6 was refitted with high capacity catapults in 1943 and catapult use was common from 1944 onward. Catapult use on USN escort carriers was the norm, not the exception.

The RN had higher capacity catapults (accelerators) on the Ark Royal (1938) and later carriers, and used their Accelerators routinely, especially for launching duty aircraft so the carrier didn't have to turn into the wind.

RCAFson said:

The pre-Essex class USN carriers had low capacity catapults that were of little use with their 1942 aircraft, most of which exceeded the catapult weight limits. CV-6 was refitted with high capacity catapults in 1943 and catapult use was common from 1944 onward. Catapult use on USN escort carriers was the norm, not the exception.

The RN had higher capacity catapults (accelerators) on the Ark Royal (1938) and later carriers, and used their Accelerators routinely, especially for launching duty aircraft so the carrier didn't have to turn into the wind.

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According to this essay on steam catapults the USN was using catapults 40% of the time for CVs, 70% for CVLs and 100% for CVEs. I think deckload launches didnt use cats with CAP and ASW using cats.
The Steam Catapult, Its History and Operation

I should have noted that this was late war.

I believe that hydraulic catapults of WWII were already adjustable, so they would launch the aircraft at a speed sufficient for flight, but not more to limit stress on the airframe.
The trust of the catapult would have been adjusted according to the aircraft type, aircraft weight, relative wind, and speed necessary for flight. The only way an aircraft could end up in the water would be due to mechanical failure.

RCAFson said:

The pre-Essex class USN carriers had low capacity catapults that were of little use with their 1942 aircraft, most of which exceeded the catapult weight limits. CV-6 was refitted with high capacity catapults in 1943 and catapult use was common from 1944 onward. Catapult use on USN escort carriers was the norm, not the exception.

The RN had higher capacity catapults (accelerators) on the Ark Royal (1938) and later carriers, and used their Accelerators routinely, especially for launching duty aircraft so the carrier didn't have to turn into the wind.

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Unfortunately the RN had a complex trolley system which resulted in slower cycle times. A Seafire is catapulted off at the 50 sec mark of the following video. You can see the trolley.


The aircraft had to be equipped with spools to hook up to the trolley which had the unfortunate effect of increasing drag. The spools are visible at the 9.50 mark of the following video.


Although such a protuberance wouldn't have much effect on a Walrus, it would on a Seafire.

altair said:

I believe that hydraulic catapults of WWII were already adjustable, so they would launch the aircraft at a speed sufficient for flight, but not more to limit stress on the airframe.
The trust of the catapult would have been adjusted according to the aircraft type, aircraft weight, relative wind, and speed necessary for flight. The only way an aircraft could end up in the water would be due to mechanical failure.

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All Cats since the H4 have had adjustable loading.
Additionally all modern ALRE (Aircraft Launch and Recovery Equipment, I do speak a little Greenshirt.) require the weight be "dialed in" for either launch or recovery. Aside from overstressing the airframe, crashes, etc., it'd be just embarrassing to watch the tailhook or launch bar depart the airplane,

altair said:

I believe that hydraulic catapults of WWII were already adjustable, so they would launch the aircraft at a speed sufficient for flight, but not mo

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I had an uncle who flew TBMs off ASW jeep carriers in the Atlantic Uboat war. He hated the hydraulic catapults, said they "beat the crap" out of the planes. He was catapult qualled on a CV with steam cats, then his squadron was broken up because the carrier they were destined for was rendered inoperative by battle damage, and the personnel were sent out as individual replacements. He wound up on CVEs doing ASW.
He said the steam cats had a relatively "soft" start with an exponential rate of acceleration, which he likened to a compound bow. The hydraulics, OTOH, he said "snapped" you into motion with the thrust sensation actually dwindling as you approached the forward deck edge, sort of like a straight or recurve bow. He said that if the engine coughed at that point you were about to play submarine and the ship would run right over you. Cheery thought.
Wes

pinsog said:

Why have Dick Best a foul mouthed insubordinate jerk instead of a respectful professional prewar pilot like he was? Why drop his bomb from 10 feet instead of 1500 (or whatever)? Why have his rear gunner be a coward that didn't want to fly Hiryu mission? Why have Best insult Gene Lindsey?

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Hollywood, Hollywood, Hollywood; never let history get in the way of a good story. Straight history is BORING! People want to see EXTREME conflict and confrontation! Don't you?

XBe02Drvr said:

Hollywood, Hollywood, Hollywood; never let history get in the way of a good story. Straight history is BORING! People want to see EXTREME conflict and confrontation! Don't you?

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Run away from this movie. I'm afraid you may not have my tolerance for morons and your next posting on this forum could be from inside a jail cell. I would love to have seen the 4 B26's doing the torpedo run as they did in real life, swarmed by Zeroes, throttles pinned to the stops, rear gunners fighting back, but no, we get Hollywood crap instead. Can't wait for the next JFK assasination movie where he is shot in New York, with a machinegun by a Chinese transvestite

pinsog said:

Run away from this movie. I'm afraid you may not have my tolerance for morons and your next posting on this forum could be from inside a jail cell.

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Not likely. I just finished rereading "Shattered Sword", and my patience with Hollywood is at a low ebb and my wallet is a little flat, so I'm not interested in wasting money on the likes of that movie.
Cheers,
Wes

XBe02Drvr said:

Not likely. I just finished rereading "Shattered Sword", and my patience with Hollywood is at a low ebb and my wallet is a little flat, so I'm not interested in wasting money on the likes of that movie.
Cheers,
Wes

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I wish I had followed your lead! I knew better than to go.
Happy Thanksgiving!

XBe02Drvr said:

I had an uncle who flew TBMs off ASW jeep carriers in the Atlantic Uboat war. He hated the hydraulic catapults, said they "beat the crap" out of the planes. He was catapult qualled on a CV with steam cats, then his squadron was broken up because the carrier they were destined for was rendered inoperative by battle damage, and the personnel were sent out as individual replacements. He wound up on CVEs doing ASW.
He said the steam cats had a relatively "soft" start with an exponential rate of acceleration, which he likened to a compound bow. The hydraulics, OTOH, he said "snapped" you into motion with the thrust sensation actually dwindling as you approached the forward deck edge, sort of like a straight or recurve bow. He said that if the engine coughed at that point you were about to play submarine and the ship would run right over you. Cheery thought.
Wes

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Little confused by the comment about steam cats and then moving to a CVE.

All Cats beat the crap out of the airplanes, and the A/G on the back end finishes the taffy pull. BTW, my ship was one of the last ones to have a C-1 hack permanently assigned to the ship and while they would trap to board, all take offs were a deck run off the angle. No cat allowed. (We lost the airplane during work-ups for the '83 cruise.)
My one catshot was overwhelming for the noise of the COD's engines and the unsecured walkman that whizzed past my head and shattered on the upper ramp.

jetcal1 said:

Little confused by the comment about steam cats and then moving to a CVE

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Well, my uncle didn't talk much about the war, but one day I went to pick him up at the Albany airport, and we visited an FBO hangar there that housed a TBM tanker belonging to NY DEC which Uncle Ned found very interesting. Said it was originally the same version he flew. On the way home he pulled out his pocket flask, and after a few sips started to talk.
Apparently, he carrier qualled on USS Wolverine, a paddle wheel steamer converted to an aircraft carrier on Lake Michigan. No cats, deck run only.
Then he was assigned to a squadron working up to deploy on an Essex class carrier that was going to be changing air wing squadrons at its next yard period. His squadron had the use of a west coast Essex carrier that was testing out some new- fangled AG and Cats in order to complete their final quals in the TBM. He said he was spoiled for cats, because his first shots were on "steam gear", which were relatively gentle on the airplane, as he later found out. Just before the squadron was to ship out for Pearl to meet their ship, word came down of change of plans. Squadron dissolved, veterans off to Training Command as instructors, and nuggets sent out as individual replacements to existing squadrons. He later discovered his intended ship had been bombed and was going to require a year in the yard rather than a month.
After a "fast train" ride of eight days to Norfolk, he was issued a tired, beat up TBM with an equally tired, beat up radioman and gunner, and told to follow his FM2 escort out to the ship which was forming up with a convoy.
"Been on a 'jeep' yet?"
"No sir."
"I see you qualled on Wolverine. Your ship will be a piece of cake. Better get going to make your TOH."
"What ship, sir?"
"Don't know. Your squadron has detachments on three ships out there. Follow the Wildcat, he knows. Shove off!"
"Aye, aye, sir!"
After two waveoffs and some heckling from the back seat, he managed to "crash" onto the first of four different CVEs he would fly off before the war was over. I've forgotten the names.
He said the cats on the CVEs were "extremely rough" and wore the planes out rather quickly. He longed for that experimental steam gear he'd experienced on the fleet carrier. Said it was much smoother and didn't have such a sharp onset, but was actually capable of a higher end speed.
Anyway, that's the way I remember it from forty five years ago.
Cheers,
Wes